"Guided" 200' dive with a single AL80?

[MXGratefulDiver]

I know Jason wants to learn more, he is starting by attending a lecture I am giving on extended range equipment and hazards.

Dennis

That's what I would call a good start ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[captain]

This is a FORTUNATE statistic. But remember, it only takes one somewhat influential person with money to screw it up for all of us.

Do you dissagree with my views that the diving community should police its own instructors, instead of a third party agency?

If so why?

As far as diving and other hazardous recreational activities I don't agree with any agency policeing. The agencies are there to provide training to those who seek it out not to force it on those who don't want it or feel they don't need it. Worry about the children, leave the adults alone, and by all accounts these were adults. I raced stock cars for a number of years at the local amature level, no training required, just show up with your car and pay the entry fee, you don't even need to show a drivers license. Percentage wise the yearly number of driver deaths per participant is greater than the number of diver deaths. The government generally will only get involved when innocent bystanders are the victims or the manufactures are selling faulty or dangerous equipment

 

[Mike Edmonston]

Unless this was a class dive, the agency's S&P doesn't apply. Sounds to me like this was four friends out diving.

Sorry bud, but I have to dissagree with that statement. If they paid him as a dive professional to guide them on a dive, that does not fall under 4 friends diving.

What gross violations? It was a stupid dive plan, but last time I checked, stupidity is legal. As for the papers and TV ... errrr ... these are the folks who think we all use oxygen tanks to dive. Do you really think they're capable of understanding why there was anything wrong with the dive plan?

I am not arguing with stupidity, if he wants to do bounce dives himself, then by all means let him knock himself out. But, taking paying clients on a guided dive and breaking those rules I do have a problem with.

With all due respect, the public won't care. We had a much more aggregious example up here last year ... one that killed a friend of mine. It ran in the papers for a day, then they moved on to more important matters ... like the latest doings of Britney Spears or Parris Hilton.

isn't that the truth, But I still have people coming in my shop scared that they will be left out in the middle of the ocean because of the movie "open water". Bad publicity keeps new divers away from the sport. That's not a good thing.

Well, I don't think what you're promoting is self policing ... sounds more like a lynch mob to me. And that's just as wrong as what you're responding to.

I'm not looking to lynch anyone. But I would rather try to make a difference as opposed to reading about a new diver dying at 200ft on a bounce dive.

Let me reiterate, that if he wants to do this on his own, more power to him. Once he takes clients down for his he-man stunts, if becomes an industry problem

 

[Nemrod]

How deep is safe on an 80 cf tank?

N

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Sorry bud, but I have to dissagree with that statement. If they paid him as a dive professional to guide them on a dive, that does not fall under 4 friends diving.

I am not arguing with stupidity, if he wants to do bounce dives himself, then by all means let him knock himself out. But, taking paying clients on a guided dive and breaking those rules I do have a problem with.

I missed the "paying client" part ... it doesn't say that anywhere in the text quoted in the OP. Does that info come from another conversation somewhere?

At any rate, I agree that if this was a dive where he was being paid to guide these people, then the rules should be somewhat more stringent ... and he shouldn't be taking them down there without all divers being properly trained and equipped.

Point is there's a right way and a wrong way to get through to people ... the wrong way seldom accomplishes anything constructive.

Had a situation not too long ago ... fellow bragging on a local board about doing deep dives it didn't sound like he was prepared for. A few "helpful" suggestions led to an aggressive conversation, and a lot of venting ... and to be fair, I was on the "venting" side of that conversation. We decided to take it to PM, and before long were agreeing to meet and go diving.

Turns out the fellow wasn't at all what came across on the Internet, and was just someone who was letting his enthusiasm for diving get the best of him. We had a nice conversation about gas management and a really pleasant dive. He learned something about dive planning ... and I learned something about not judging people based on what they post on the Internet.

Classic win-win ... perhaps not as satisfying as calling someone a jerk in public, but overall better results ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Mike Edmonston]

Are you saying the guy completely fabricated the entire story ...and the video tape on his web site as well?

Well, I personally think that his accounts are untrue. Fabricated, NO, exagerated, yes. 200ft with the species of reef fish and ambient light seen on the video... I don't think so.

According to his profile he is just as young as you and has about 10 years more experience than you do as a certified diver.

I have no interest in spelling out my diving history or experience or my time on Nuclear submarines etc... Do a search on SB or Decostop and you'll get a better idea.
And according to you he has more than 28 years experience, good for him.

Has it occured to you he maybe in better physical condition than you (pictures don't lie mike go to his web sight and then check out your profile) and thus has a better SAC than you.

Yup, I'm just a fat Floridian cave diver. I keep meaning to get in better shape, but I really enjoy food. Besides, my wife is happy with me just the way I am, and my dog still likes me. I'm sure he has phenomenal sac rate, again good for him. What about the sac rate of the people he was guiding??....

Maybe his gas managment calcs for a 200' bounce dive in open water on a hard bottom only require a single tank ...yea I know diving a single tank in deco is irresponsible but I don't know anything more than what he has responded too and he executed the dive flawlessly.

Yup, you know everything.

Until you have actually dove with the guy maybe you should cut him some slack and not try to destroy him and his livelyhood ... just a thought!

I have no intention on diving with the guy, I don't care what he does with himself. As long as he guides clients to depths way beyond safe recreational limits and brags about it, I will have a problem with it.

Skull, seriously, the best thing you could do is take a class in advanced nitrox and deco procedures. This is not a slam, but you don't know what you don't know. I see that you enjoy diving, and the aformentioned classes would fit right in with your diving style. Specially if you want to spear the big fish. I really think that you would enjoy the classes alot.

Safe diving...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

How deep is safe on an 80 cf tank?

N

I'd say that all depends on what Mr. Murphy has planned for the day ... :11:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Rick Inman]

How deep is safe on an 80 cf tank?

N

You have to look on your certification card to see how deep you can go.

Last Tuesday on the regular weekly dive, a new guy ran OOA at 60', and after getting air from his buddy, in a panic dragged them both to the surface where they did a flying leap from the water and made a real big splash. Then the panicked diver tried to sink back down and drown, but his buddy (who has even less dives - six total, I think), managed to swim them both to shore and saved the day.

The OOA diver had an al80, so 60' was too deep for him.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You have to look on your certification card to see how deep you can go.

Last Tuesday on the regular weekly dive, a new guy ran OOA at 60', and after getting air from his buddy, in a panic dragged them both to the surface where they did a flying leap from the water and made a real big splash. Then the panicked diver tried to sink back down and drown, but his buddy (who has even less dives - six total, I think), managed to swim them both to shore and saved the day.

The OOA diver had an al80, so 60' was too deep for him.

When I was a newbie I ran OOA at Edmonds ... about 23 minutes into the dive. I think I maxed at about 35 feet ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Nemrod]

Well, I am just trying ot figure this out, we are saying 200 is to deep on a 80 cf tank so my question, is 150' OK, howabout 130', at what depth is an 80 safe?

Frankly, I don't think bouncing 200 feet is all that dangerous. On a relative scale:

SAFE<1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10>Dangerous

I am just going to give a 200 foot bounce a 5.

Riding a motorcycle in a metro area, 7.

Eating milktoast, .5.

Running with the bulls, 7.

Hunting with Dick Cheny, 9.

N