Air Integrated or non-air intergrated?

[beardown]

I'm a recreational diver shopping for my first dive computer and have gathered as much info I can. I'm completely burned out on LDS sales BS, and the typical LDS starting price quoted on AI computers is obscenely high in most cases. I have a real basic question concerning air integrated vs. non-air-integrated computers that I can't seem to get answered. It may have been answered on here numerous times... if so, my apologies.

Scenario -A AI computer either 1) doesn't allow for a satisfactory degree of personal adjustment of the computer's conservative vs. aggressive calculation of remaining air time to properly reflect your diving characteristics, or 2) doesn't allow for ANY adjustment so that the computer's algorithms simply are what they are, and.....

3) you can find a non-AI computer that seems to do an adequate job on alarms, etc. given the limitations of that device's software programming then (finally, here's the question) what is the real value of air-integrated computers? Sure, somewhat more info, but its being sifted thru a software program that you may or may not be able to adjust to a more realistic standard, and ultimately is this any more helpful or accurate than an analog gauge combined with a non-AI computer?

It seems that when you look carefully the AI concept is certainly good, but the devil is always in the details, and the real limitations are in the programming limitations of the AI computers. Attempting to get meaningful information from LDS retailers on this subject I've found to be a waste of my time. I'm a details guy and maybe I'm over thinking this, but isn't that the whole point of the technology anyway... to get you more and better details - to maximize safety?

Any thoughts would be helpful.

 

[spectrum]

IMO make it easy on yourself and get a non AI unit that is easy to read and call it a day.

A non AI unit will be simpler and leave more $$ in your pocket. All of the integration you need should be waiting for free between your ears.

Do you see you diving as being so demanding that conservatism is an issue? A self imposed minimum NDL will let you increase conservatism easily. I have not kept up with which computers are ultraconservative but I'm sure some will post.

Most of what matters should be predetermined in the dive planning process.

Pete

 

[RonFrank]

The ONE huge advantage of AI computers is that everything is on your wrist. Divers constantly chimp on depth unless they are familiar with the site, or it's a flat profile. With an AI computer you are constantly watching your PSI.

For most experienced divers this is not real necessary as one is not blowing through air at some out of control manner. But then again, if one had a leak somewhere like from the first stage, one would likely notice this much more quickly using an AI assuming your buddy did not say something first.

I have both, an Aeris Epic, and an Atoms II. I've grown to love the Epic, but do find the larger color coded NDL bar graph more easily readable on my Atmos II, which is also much larger.

The Epic is an amazing computer. I can do deco, it provides time left based on the current dive profile and air consumption, It captures a ton of data that can be downloaded to a computer, and can do more interesting things like monitor multiple tanks . It does not do Trimix, so this is not a rebreather computer, but for a rec diver there is not much that one would ever need that it does not handle.

Diving in a conservative way should be a decision the diver makes, not the computer. IOW's if you want to be more conservative, than do go too close to the NDL. However I do think the Epic has an adjustment for that as well. One can also do stuff like dive Nitrox 36, and set the computer to a lower mix.

I'm not trying to sell the AI solution, but it's nice. That said, my brass SPG stays on my primary. But with the AI, I could dive with just two gauges, it, and a compass.

The Atoms II is a tank, and if you can find one used, I would imaging it would run under $150, and provide all the functionality necessary in a Dive Computer. I've been completely happy with mine, and have zero issues with it.

 

[LowVizWiz]

I have both a Suunto Cobra, which is AI and a Sunnto Vyper, which is not. The AI is nice to have long after the dives are over. I can look back and not have to look for notes on tank pressure etc. (Mind you these are all rec. dives using rule of thirds for planning) I can look back and graph the dive and see how my consumption changed or was affected at any point during the dive. You know the geeky part of me -- without having to be a geek about notes etc while everyone else is talking about the dive.

Since my computer is a console which I keep clipped to my right chest d-ring, it allows me to see everything I need at a glance. It's not significantly easier than it would be if I were using an SPG clipped to my left side so I give the computer a very slight advantage here.

I could see a larger advantage if you were to go with a wrist and transmitter AI computer over a console AI computer.

Also, I don't know if I understand your question correctly, but I have connected my SPG and my AI computer and the pressure readings are the same. You don't have to trust the "remaining air" calculation. The pressure remaining on your SPG or AI computer should be the same.

As was said before AI is a nice thing to have, but it's not a necessity.

 

[scubafanatic]

I'm a recreational diver shopping for my first dive computer and have gathered as much info I can. I'm completely burned out on LDS sales BS, and the typical LDS starting price quoted on AI computers is obscenely high in most cases. I have a real basic question concerning air integrated vs. non-air-integrated computers that I can't seem to get answered. It may have been answered on here numerous times... if so, my apologies.

Scenario -A AI computer either 1) doesn't allow for a satisfactory degree of personal adjustment of the computer's conservative vs. aggressive calculation of remaining air time to properly reflect your diving characteristics, or 2) doesn't allow for ANY adjustment so that the computer's algorithms simply are what they are, and.....

3) you can find a non-AI computer that seems to do an adequate job on alarms, etc. given the limitations of that device's software programming then (finally, here's the question) what is the real value of air-integrated computers? Sure, somewhat more info, but its being sifted thru a software program that you may or may not be able to adjust to a more realistic standard, and ultimately is this any more helpful or accurate than an analog gauge combined with a non-AI computer?

It seems that when you look carefully the AI concept is certainly good, but the devil is always in the details, and the real limitations are in the programming limitations of the AI computers. Attempting to get meaningful information from LDS retailers on this subject I've found to be a waste of my time. I'm a details guy and maybe I'm over thinking this, but isn't that the whole point of the technology anyway... to get you more and better details - to maximize safety?

Any thoughts would be helpful.

...well, it's true that AI computers are spendy, but if you look around you can still find reasonable deals....I got my AI Oceanic Datamax Pro Plus on sale @ $ 600 each, new. Price aside, I'll share my experiences with the AI Oceanic and the AI Cochran Gemini.....you CAN adjust the 'conservatism' to some extent, more so on the Cochran, on the Cochran, you can actually program a value of 0% to 50%, I've got mine set to 25%, which means, for N2 loading calculations, if I dive to 100 ft., it calculates my N2 loading as if I'm at 125 ft. (this adjustment doesn't affect the O2 loading calculations, just the N2 loading.) Also, the computer automatically factors in water temps/sea vs. fresh water into the calculations as well. The Oceanic, well, you don't adjust the conservatism, but you follow the color-coded bar graph to determine how close you want to venture to the 'red' or deco zones. Both computers have user adjustable alarms where you program them to tell you when you hit a certain PSI, or when you are within a certain number of minutes to being out of bottom time based on either deco or gas status.
Presently, I'm diving an AI Oceanic, a back-up, non-AI Cochran, and a separate SPG, and I've just upgraded the Cochran to an AI version...so when it's all said and done, I'll be diving with 2 AI computers and back-up SPG...call me crazy!

Karl

 

[Arizona]

My first computer was an AirLab (Darwin by Mares). Price in a combined reg/SPG package led me to buying it. It is basically a digital SPG with a computer built in. It works great and is ideal for a first computer IMO. It computes everything you would expect including your breathing rate. You can adjust alarms for low air. It works great in low vis and on night dives. Nitrox as well.

The only draw back is it is a little heavier than a traditional SPG. Wireless is not my preference, so this may be another option if you plan on staying non wireless. The price is competitive. Check out scubatoys.com to get some pricing ideas to compare to your LDS. I am not sure what Mares calls this anymore as models have changed.

As I am just about to jump into instructor training, I am going wrist mount. The main reason is while teaching I should have a analog display for teaching purposes. I plan on getting an analog pressure gauge and compass on the SPG, and use a Mares Nemo for depth, non deco time...

I was very happy with this set up for over 120 dives and 3+ years. No issues and the battery is easy to change.

Just found this: Mares Mission Puck Nitrox Computer Console , Computers: Nitrox, Mares, Mares Mission Puck Nitrox Computer Console

Not sure if it is what your looking for, but check out the price. It has everything you will most likely need.

Good luck,

AZ

 

[1_T_Submariner]

IMHO Save your money and get a non AI nitrox computer and become more aware of your diving so you don't rely on alarms. Like after years of driving the same vehicle I don't look at the speedometer much because I already know what it is going to say.

 

[RAWalker]

I've had both Non and AI computers. I appreciate the extra info and alarms that the AI computer provides to me. Yes, you can do without it but the info just makes things that much easier. I feel it's worth the price of admission.
As you become a more experienced diver and know the environment you'll be diving you may need less info. However I don't dive places I'm familiar with all the time. I like to explore new places like many others. If your driving your sportscar on twisting turning mountain roads you've never driven before, you will use all the instruments that help you do it safer. lights, GPS and speedometer included.

 

[gcbryan]

I'm a recreational diver shopping for my first dive computer and have gathered as much info I can. I'm completely burned out on LDS sales BS, and the typical LDS starting price quoted on AI computers is obscenely high in most cases. I have a real basic question concerning air integrated vs. non-air-integrated computers that I can't seem to get answered. It may have been answered on here numerous times... if so, my apologies.

Scenario -A AI computer either 1) doesn't allow for a satisfactory degree of personal adjustment of the computer's conservative vs. aggressive calculation of remaining air time to properly reflect your diving characteristics, or 2) doesn't allow for ANY adjustment so that the computer's algorithms simply are what they are, and.....

3) you can find a non-AI computer that seems to do an adequate job on alarms, etc. given the limitations of that device's software programming then (finally, here's the question) what is the real value of air-integrated computers? Sure, somewhat more info, but its being sifted thru a software program that you may or may not be able to adjust to a more realistic standard, and ultimately is this any more helpful or accurate than an analog gauge combined with a non-AI computer?

It seems that when you look carefully the AI concept is certainly good, but the devil is always in the details, and the real limitations are in the programming limitations of the AI computers. Attempting to get meaningful information from LDS retailers on this subject I've found to be a waste of my time. I'm a details guy and maybe I'm over thinking this, but isn't that the whole point of the technology anyway... to get you more and better details - to maximize safety?

Any thoughts would be helpful.

Maybe I'm reading your question too literally but none of them allow for adjustment of "remaining air time". This is calculated from your actual consumption rate as the dive progresses. There is no need to dial it in for personal characteristics. It's already doing that.

Many computers allow for adjustment of conservatism regarding how much time before you reach NDL but that is not "remaining air time" so I'm not sure which you were referring to.

I don't have an AI computer because I don't have a problem with a SPG clipped off to my waist D-ring and because I want to keep the display as uncluttered as possible. To me it's not necessary nor desirable to have tank pressure and estimated time remaining displayed on my computer thus cluttering up the display when it's not necessary to do so.

I also like to keep the cost down on any one piece of scuba gear because all of it must be replaced at some point due to leaks/theft/coming off underwater.

 

[Dan Watkins]

Scenario -A AI computer either 1) doesn't allow for a satisfactory degree of personal adjustment of the computer's conservative vs. aggressive calculation of remaining air time to properly reflect your diving characteristics,

Air time remaining takes your current breath rate, and depth, and provides an estimate of how much air you have left taking into account time for your ascent, deco stop or safty stop, and how much air you want to have left. Most current computers allow you to set how much air you want at the end of the dive. If you want to be conservative, you can set it for 1,000 psi if you wanted to, if you wanted to not be conservative, you can set it to something less like 300 psi. Features like saftey stop times, add conservatism.

or 2) doesn't allow for ANY adjustment so that the computer's algorithms simply are what they are, and.....

See above, most current computers provide a lot of adjustment for air time remaining. My Oceanic VT3 also allows you to select the next higher altitude to provide nitrogen conservative factors too.

3) you can find a non-AI computer that seems to do an adequate job on alarms, etc. given the limitations of that device's software programming then (finally, here's the question) what is the real value of air-integrated computers? Sure, somewhat more info, but its being sifted thru a software program that you may or may not be able to adjust to a more realistic standard, and ultimately is this any more helpful or accurate than an analog gauge combined with a non-AI computer?

It seems that when you look carefully the AI concept is certainly good, but the devil is always in the details, and the real limitations are in the programming limitations of the AI computers. Attempting to get meaningful information from LDS retailers on this subject I've found to be a waste of my time. I'm a details guy and maybe I'm over thinking this, but isn't that the whole point of the technology anyway... to get you more and better details - to maximize safety?

Any thoughts would be helpful.

In the end, you also have your actual psi remaining which is the same information a guage would provide. So you can use that if you want and use air time remaining as an estimate. I have found them to be pretty accurate. One nice thing the air time remaining gives you is a real time calculation of how long you can stay when you vary your depth. As you go deeper, you get a representation of how little you can stay... As you ascend and dive more shallow, you get a real time representation of how much more you can stay...

Honestly, for me the real benefit to the air integrated compter is to download to a PC. Having your air data throughout the dive at all the depths allows you to get a pretty accurate SAC rate calculation, which is very helpful to use in planning dives and guaging if your breathing is improving.