Split fins or not

[meesier42]

The truth is that many divers, especially the new ones, walk into a local lds and are presented with a split v. paddle choice. Force Fins, Mantarays, etc are not even there to be considered.

But that is exactly the point and the problem. New divers, the ones that are best able to quickly realize the benefits of ForceFins are never introduced to them because most LDS don't carry them. But in this environment they are introduced to the additional options that exist and that they are not limited to the 2-3 choices that their LDS happens to sell.

Now only if the haters out there would stop moaning about things they have never actually used and speak intelligently about their personnal expiriences, we could probaby have a better and more positive discussion.

 

[BKP]

I've only ever been diving with my split fins that I bought during my OW class...and after getting a reasonable amount of wear with them and as I fine tune my skills and expand my kick types, I'm starting to get the sense that there are some major limitations to them.

I feel like they are less effective against currents, they aren't good for frog kicking, and something in the design makes them difficult to use to make directional changes. I have no idea why I feel this way, I have no experience with anything else, but part of me is thinking that they are great for someone who wants to flutter or scissor only, and in mild conditions only.

Am I imagining this or have other people had this experience and been turned off by them? I'm feeling about ready to just switch over to some jet fins. I'm open to other suggestions as well.

Seems to me you've answered your own question.

Try the paddles... or Force Fins... or Morfins...
If you haven't already noticed from the responses here, fins are a very personal choice for personal reasons... somewhat like asking if vanilla is the best flavor... Only one way to find out regardless of what advice you're given...

 

[RonFrank]

New divers, the ones that are best able to quickly realize the benefits of ForceFins are never introduced to them because most LDS don't carry them.

The reality is that Force Fins raised their pricing, and honestly they are not worth the price based on the performance when there are very viable options at less than half the cost.

The last thing a new diver wants to do is to spend $190+ on a pair of bottom of the line Force fins when they have no clue if they work well for them. Heck, they won't be in a position to even judge what works best for maybe 50~100 dives.

If you truely believe what you just posted, talk to the owners, and lower the cost. If you are pricing them out of the market, no one is going to carry them, and they will never get into the main stream.

I was surprised to see that the float tube force fins at the local hunting warehouse were under $100. Obviously that market seems to be working, so why are the diving versions soo much more expensive?

 

[james croft]

I have seen countless debate over paddles, split fins and force fins. What is never mentioned is that the split fins is the only fin I am aware of that allows a diver to easily remove their bikini bottom without having to remove the fins first as the fin may easily be folded over lengthwise to facilitate this important U/W skill.

 

[meesier42]

The reality is that Force Fins raised their pricing

When your fin cost more to produce than many fins retail for, and the price or raw material goes up, pricing has to follow. You didn't see this in most other fins since most other fins cost less than $20 to deliver to the LDS showroom floor, if you don't believe me check your dealer price list.

As for their Pricing. retail pricing right now is in line with their performance equals. The Apollo BioFin, the Aeris Velocity XP, Tusa Expert Zooms, Oceanic V-16, Mares Volo Power. I can go on, but all of these fins are in the $140-$190 range that both the Original and the Foil Force are selling in, so moaning about they are too expensive is a just scare tactic to convince unwitting buyer from even looking at an inovative product line.

 

[Scott M]

so moaning about they are too expensive is a just scare tactic to convince unwitting buyer from even looking at an inovative product line.

If your going to beat up on what peoples arguements are than in all fairness your backing up the product by using US government funded Seals holds no water either. Unless you have complete faith in the US's buying decisions. If you do I have a $1,200 hammer and $2,000 toilet seat to sell you. It comes down what people prefer. You stated a few posts back you wanted real input from real users. I'm a real user and like them but prefer not to use them. As I have said mainly because I do not like the lack of feed back that my blades give me when using them. I gave them to my dive buddy who's legs get tired easily to see if they would work for him. He gave them a good try but just never got used to them and switched to a really light weight split which he now loves so he gave them back to me. Thats real world use and opinions for all thats worth.

 

[meesier42]

If your going to beat up on what peoples arguements are than in all fairness your backing up the product by using US government funded Seals holds no water either. Unless you have complete faith in the US's buying decisions. If you do I have a $1,200 hammer and $2,000 toilet seat to sell you. It comes down what people prefer. You stated a few posts back you wanted real input from real users. I'm a real user and like them but prefer not to use them. As I have said mainly because I do not like the lack of feed back that my blades give me when using them. I gave them to my dive buddy who's legs get tired easily to see if they would work for him. He gave them a good try but just never got used to them and switched to a really light weight split which he now loves so he gave them back to me. Thats real world use and opinions for all thats worth.

Except it does hold water because each Seal is issued a pair of Jets, not ForceFins. Once they leave BUDS, and they are allowed to get whatever fin they desire, most of them select ForceFins.

For real world feedback. I have been diving ForceFins for 10+years now, in that time, I have introduced not less than 100 divers to them, and 99% of them bought a pair for themselves. The only person that didn't, used them for about 4 minutes and said they don't work, took them off and put his rockets back on. So I am convinced that you and your friend have something else going against you, like your "lack of feedback". realizing that the feedback that you are talking about has a name, its called DRAG. how can you have a high drag and be efficient?

 

[Scott M]

So I am convinced that you and your friend have something else going against you, like your "lack of feedback". realizing that the feedback that you are talking about has a name, its called DRAG. how can you have a high drag and be efficient?

In diving I have no need to dive like a SEAL, they are on a mission to get a job done, I am not, I am there to enjoy the dive not race through it so I have little to no need for a fin that is marginally faster than what I wear. I like the feed back in the fins I use because I can control exactly where I want to be in the water column, up tight against a wall observing the little things, backing up and all the things that feed back gives me. I like to be able to put the brakes on at will with my blades and feel the water resistance stopping me. With FF's I did not get that. It was harder to judge my speed, stopping and turning. When I did dive the FF's I found myself always way ahead of way behind the other divers constantly having to think about over finning or not finning enough because I couldn't feel them and how they react to the water around them. Are they easy on the legs? yes. Can they be the best fin for SEAL divers, I suppose they could. Are they for everyone, no and no amount of defending them or studies or proof is going to change many peoples minds. There is no such thing as best for all people no matter how much research you do to prove otherwsie. If that was the case we would all drive Camry's.

What FF's lack to become main stream is marketing. Trying to force a product down someones throat with the techniques used by the hard core FF wearers will never ever work. If anything it will drive people away. Like I said I own them and know a few others that own them and don't use them so I doubt the 99% comment.

 

[meesier42]

In diving I have no need to dive like a SEAL, they are on a mission to get a job done, I am not, I am there to enjoy the dive not race through it so I have little to no need for a fin that is marginally faster than what I wear. I like the feed back in the fins I use because I can control exactly where I want to be in the water column, up tight against a wall observing the little things, backing up and all the things that feed back gives me. I like to be able to put the brakes on at will with my blades and feel the water resistance stopping me. With FF's I did not get that. It was harder to judge my speed, stopping and turning. When I did dive the FF's I found myself always way ahead of way behind the other divers constantly having to think about over finning or not finning enough because I couldn't feel them and how they react to the water around them. Are they easy on the legs? yes. Can they be the best fin for SEAL divers, I suppose they could. Are they for everyone, no and no amount of defending them or studies or proof is going to change many peoples minds. There is no such thing as best for all people no matter how much research you do to prove otherwsie. If that was the case we would all drive Camry's.

What FF's lack to become main stream is marketing. Trying to force a product down someones throat with the techniques used by the hard core FF wearers will never ever work. If anything it will drive people away. Like I said I own them and know a few others that own them and don't use them so I doubt the 99% comment.

so its agreed then, your dislike for ForceFins is your lack of skill

 

[Scott M]

so its agreed then, your dislike for ForceFins is your lack of skill

You must have seen me dive.


EDIT: But in all seriousness it's people like you that keep the people from even giving them a chance not me. Think about that. Up until now I have backed the FF's and have always given them a fair shake when asked about them. I doubt I will do that ever again.