Lost in a cave

[TSandM]

Dave, they really didn't do a visual jump. But they did go into the cave without a guideline, and got on the wrong line. Regarding going under the guideline -- You HAVE to. The silly thing is tied to the ceiling, and there is no room at all for a diver to get between the ceiling and the line. When we got to it, I looked at it for a long time (I tied in right in the section where it is on the ceiling) and I could not figure ANY way we could follow the line without getting to the other side of it, and getting to the other side simply required going under the line. If you find the line 100 feet or so to the right of where we tied in, you CAN go over it, but not where we were. It's not well run line.

 

[wedivebc]

Dave, they really didn't do a visual jump. But they did go into the cave without a guideline, and got on the wrong line. Regarding going under the guideline -- You HAVE to. The silly thing is tied to the ceiling, and there is no room at all for a diver to get between the ceiling and the line. When we got to it, I looked at it for a long time (I tied in right in the section where it is on the ceiling) and I could not figure ANY way we could follow the line without getting to the other side of it, and getting to the other side simply required going under the line. If you find the line 100 feet or so to the right of where we tied in, you CAN go over it, but not where we were. It's not well run line.

I have a pretty good idea where they were. If I am not mistaken they left the main line before the 90' bend that points to Paso De Legarto and I recall there was a passage to the left that was a shortcut to Ho Tul Cenote (although I never followed that one). Is that where the line is near the ceiling?
Anyway it sounded that one of these guys had no business being in that cave from your description and that should have been the pimary lesson learned.
I think Grande Cenote to Ho Tul is a intro level dive but not if there is a jump off the main line.

 

[kidsdream]

I just completed Cavern and Intro to Cave a week ago an our instructor (Johnny Richards) was quite clear related to his preference regarding the use of cookies vs. arrows.

If fact, except for leaving a arrow for a lost diver (when you have left the line or existed the cave), he did not have many must use reasons for arrows.

Tying in and placing a cookie on the exit side does not change the general navigation of the cave. Your personal marker is your own information, and doesn't confuse anyone who may pass the point while you are away from the line. (I suppose that, if you are in an area where the arrows in general are pointing to your exit, you could use an arrow, but the way I was taught, arrows are used for very little, because cookies accomplish the same thing and don't impact anyone else.)

 

[TSandM]

The line they ended up on is a very short line that heads pretty much straight left -- It would be a jump off the mainline, if one found the mainline; but it is very easy to end up on it if you bear too far left while reeling in, which is how I found it. I think the OP's group did the same thing I did, and never found the mainline on the way in at all, so they didn't actually do a jump.

The HoTul line is an Intro/Cave 1 dive, albeit a rather short one (but it's longer than the line we all ended up on!) The short line is an Intro dive as well -- no restrictions, no navigational decisions, no depth -- but it's only about 6 or 7 minutes long.

 

[ae3753]

I have a pretty good idea where they were. If I am not mistaken they left the main line before the 90' bend that points to Paso De Legarto and I recall there was a passage to the left that was a shortcut to Ho Tul Cenote (although I never followed that one). Is that where the line is near the ceiling?

The way I read the incident report, the line they went off into was a line at the left edge of Grand Cenote. This is off the cavern line.

The bypass line that you reference is off the main cave line, about 8 min-10 min into the cave. That line is tied to the floor. My avatar is coming back to Grand Cenote via the bypass line. I had just picked up the jump spool, and the picture was taken.

 

[battles2a5]

One of the things Danny frequently said to us during our class was to look behind us and see what the cave looked like from that point of view, because it's often so different from what you see going in. And I have to say that, on this last trip, something which relaxed me enormously was that I could say, "Yes, the line's going to go over here, and then turn right and climb past that big stalagmite . . . " Following the line is like mapquesting an unfamiliar destination; reading a familiar cave is like driving home from a frequently visited location.

I think this is an important point. Too many people rely on the line to get them out of the cave. They should be picking up milestones and reference points in the cave as well. Once you "know" the cave you have a few more tools available to you in you become disoriented. However, it is very hard to learn the cave on the ingress of your first dive there.

If I remember correctly, the mainline at GC is quite a distance from the entrance and WELL out of site on the cavern entrance. Not putting a primary into the ear or at Peacock 1 is one thing. Doing it in a no-flow cave where the tie-in is beyond the daylight zone AND you have never been in is wreckless. I can understand the OW diver thing, but I am not going to risk my life for an OW diver that is stupid enough to throw theirs away in a cave they shouldn't be in.

 

[Daedalus]

I'm a full cave diver with about 40 dives past full cave, and until the dive in question all of these cave dives were in Florida. I was diving in Mexico with two of my group of Florida buddies: I'll call them Carl and Ed.

Carl is a friend I got interested in cave diving and got him to take Intro to Cave last year. We brought him along on this trip because, despite being Intro-level, his skills in the water are above average for a cave diver with his level of overhead experience.

Ed is a cave & tech instructor who taught both of us, and has hundreds of dives in Mexico's caves, but he had not been down to Mexico in a few years. He was introducing us to the area, a place I had been looking forward to visiting since I started on caves

If the two guys along for the ride on the trust me dive want to stay anonymous that is fine but the "cave and tech instructor" needs to be held to account for this. We need an agency and a name.

 

[dave4868]

If the two guys along for the ride on the trust me dive want to stay anonymous that is fine but the "cave and tech instructor" needs to be held to account for this. We need an agency and a name.

Who is "we", by the way? Not me, certainly.

Creating Scuba Police isn't going to be helpful, IMO. That would squelch open discussion and be counterproductive.

Dave C

 

[Daedalus]

Who is "we", by the way? Not me, certainly.

Creating Scuba Police isn't going to be helpful, IMO. That would squelch open discussion and be counterproductive.

Dave C

This is not about Scuba Police. This is about an individual certified by at least one training agency to train divers in a very unforgiving sport . This individual was acting in a mentor/guide capacity bringing less experienced divers on a reckless dive plan that violates one of the most important rules in cave diving. It does not need to be swept under the rug. Willful blindness to this misconduct is what is counterproductive. Would you want your loved ones to be certified by an instructor who does this?

If the instructor responsible wants to say "It was me, I screwed up, it wont happen again" that is a step in the right direction. There can be no forgiveness without repentance.

 

[seaducer]

We were briefed on the ride down that we were not going to run a primary reel to the main line because open water divers in this region might follow our line into the cave, so they like to keep the lines hidden from the cavern.

I am not a cave diver, nor even a cavern diver, but I think the above needs highlighting, again, for emphasis.

Nobody should ever risk their own lives in order to protect an idiot from their own stupidity. (I know, emergency response people do it all the time, but that is not the same as this. And I am not sure ER types should be asked to risk their necks for Darwin Candidates either.)