LDS -vs- Online purchases

[TMHeimer]

rollerboi, You're right that the musician thing is not an exact analogy. Guess what I'm trying to say is that gear (or anything) bought over the internet is just the way it is today. LDS owners and other businesses (like musicians) must find a way to deal with it to stay in business.

 

[Trimix2dive]

How bout this thought -

LDS - I dive alot. I have alot of friends. I have children that in the future will be old enough to dive (they dive now).

Lets make a deal - Be fair to me, and I'll be fair to you. I have money and you have things I want to buy now and in the future. Don't gouge me, and be fair. I will spot check things from time to time before I buy, and will let you know it. I understand you do not have the buying power (tiered discount structures) of some of the mega stores. But a 5-10% difference is different then a 30-40% difference. One I can understand, and one I cannot.

The above understanding was reached with a dive shop owner over 18 years ago. I was in their 2 weeks ago, got myself a coke out of the refrigerator back in the repair table and fill station area - shot the BS for about 20 minutes, got some stuff and a little friend of the dive shop discount and headed out on my way.

Over the years he has received payment for 4 for my family and 12+ different set-ups diving gear packages from various people, probably some 35-40 direct students, indirect students & Sales ???, and who knows how many dive trips, additional class, or airfills have been done.

All from a simple understanding between two people

 

[ToPpS]

Well I was a special case.
While i was living in the UK i bought stuff online from Simply Scuba but then i didn't know any LDS in the area as i did my training while on holiday in Thailand.

When returning to home to SA my LDS and online stores the items were double the price or more even after paying import prices. For example my BCD was R5400 in SA and R2800 from the UK, my dive computer was R6500 in the UK and a whopping R17'000 in SA.... ouch.

Like i said, South Africa is a special case because the prices over here are bordering on extortion!

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Part of the problem, I think, is that many LDS owners were divers first, then retail business owners 2nd. They decided to get into the business out of love of diving, but many lack real retail business experience and lack basic customer service skills. They may not have the "thick skins" necessary for retail. And if they are the shop that "certified" the diver, they also have established a personal connection, and may see "their" ex-student shopping online almost as a betrayal.

None of this is right, but it does seem to exist... and not just in diving.... other sports have this problem where the "enthusiast" becomes the business owner.

In my case, I do try to support my LDS when I can; but not to my own detriment. When his prices are not even in the same ballpark, I shop online. If his prices are not too much higher, I buy from the LDS. That's a whole lot more than I would do for any other "typical" business.

Best wishes.

 

[MarKon]

"All from a simple understanding between two people" - Trimix2dive

-How much better could life be if things could come down to this more often?

 

[dewayne405]

I guess I am just lucky, my LDS offers price matching for other LDS's as well as online stores, with some provisions of course (ie. authorized dealer, same merchandise, etc..) I have bought two full set ups for my wife and I from him. And I have bought several items from ST, while actually in ST store...

My LDS has always been fair, and goes the extra step to make it worth your while to purchase from them... I get free air refills, and free equipment servicing on our setups for the first 3 years... Not to mention, we got our AOW and Rescue for basically half price... and now I am getting my DM for materials costs only...

All because I choose to be loyal to him, he chooses to be loyal to me the customer... We both win... In the year that I have known him, I have sent him 18 students, for everything from OW to Rescue, and I know of at least 14 full gear purchases...

In return, I get store bucks as he calls it for referrals and gear purchases... I have banked enough now, that I am going to use it to pay for DM, and get a new Reg setup...

 

[jjufon]

I tried to give them some business; i was looking for a computer, and i was shopping by price for the most part. not one single one is marked and it just became a hassle, and at the time i didn't know what they retailed for nor the street price. i was looking at the oceanic pro data 2. i found it out the door, with compass and quick disconnect (both extra as ST BTW) for 550.00.
one of the instructors there told me later that they will price match.
cool, but since nothing is marked, i have to go find what i want on-line and get a price from them so they can match it. what if their everyday price was less? since it isn't marked, i'll never know will i . . .
End of the day, set a reasonable price, mark it!! and if you're willing to do a little dealing because i'm a good customer or buy a lot then do so but don't make me ask someone for a price check on everything!
and again, i just left there a few weeks ago and it's the same since Feb. nothing is marked!

 

[friscuba]

Yes! How dare you go to a store, peruse their goods, and not buy their products! This happens nowhere else in life. People always buy hte first home they see, the first car they drive, the first pair of shoes they try on, right? Honestly, that this issue even exists blows me away. Shops are mad that internet retailers have figured out how to cut their prices, and shops harass the CUSTOMERS? Just reading these posts makes me want to never enter a LDS again. An LDS is a store with goods. You have every right to ask questions, examine their gear, etc, and you owe them nothing. THEY need to earn YOUR business, not vice-versa. I may have offically sworn off the LDS (my 2 locals both have their issues, which have been posted by others elsewhere). But maybe not, because I like to walk in and look at stuff. As far as AIR, if it comes to it, compressors will start to sell better, or air fills will become available at other places, because there is a need. I don't see air fills ever becoming a serious issue.

Frankly, perhaps retail shops should charge the same price as the online guys... then charge 35 bucks an hour to let customers IN the store to test and compare and ask questions about the product. Now that'd be fair. $35 bucks an hour is actually pretty cheap for consultation rates in most industries.

As to AIR, start looking at prices of both compressors and maintenance and do the math. I saw someone do that in one of these threads a couple years back and it basically would take a couple thousand fills to break even with a cheap compressor in your garage. For a fill station having to pay rent, they'd have to pump a LOT of tanks daily to make a profit. That isn't going to happen in most places.

 

[offthewall1]

Here are two questions I pose occassionally to customers...

1. When was the last time you went into Walmart, Macy's, Sports Authority or any other retailer for that matter and asked them to reduce a price on the shirt you were buying? Do you try to negotiate a price in any other retail store other than a dive shop? (Auto dealers are not retail stores)

2. Do you get personal service online?

Let's address each question for just a minute... and remember - we're both an LDS and an online retailer... so our opinion is open, honest and doesn't really favor you buying from one over the other... because we do both.

1. A good LDS with an internet presence doesn't play pricing games. You can walk into their store everyday and get a price that matches or beats everyone else on the internet. The only problem is you're not always comparing apples to apples - and that is what you don't in many cases know. There is a big difference between an LDS with an Internet presence and an internet wholesaler without an LDS.


Here is an example. A Scubapro regulator bought at your LDS is likely fully covered under a warranty from SP whereas the one from Leisurepro is not. Now nevermind that... and nevermind the price difference... LP may be $179 and your LDS $259.... but that's not part of the point I'm making here. You see an $80 price difference... but that's just a surface picture.

The point is that the LDS (at least the good ones) check and tune the regulator for you before handing it over and in most cases the regulator is fresh (say produced within the past year or so.) The regulator from Leisurepro is not checked and tuned before shipping... and it is highly likely it is from old - and I mean OLD stock.

Not so long ago I ordered a couple of regs from LP and when I got them and checked them... the manufacture dates were from 2002... ladies and gentleman that is 7 years old. Now, the o-rings in these regulators probably need to be replaced before I use them... so my point is this... in some cases you're receiving a regulator out of the box that needs to be serviced before the first use... only you don't know that. To me, an unknowing and unsuspecting consumer buying goods that have sat in a warehouse to warehouse to warehouse situation... is dangerous.

Now, you have this regulator and you need annual service on it. If you're not a regulator technician, you'll need to have it done somewhere. LP gives you a warranty they know you'll never use. I mean, are you really going to pay to ship it there and back every year?.. That will get expensive - to the point that by year 2 or 3 - you could have saved yourself the packing and shipping hassle and paid a little more at the LDS... and got a fresh safe regulator to boot.

Will we match prices on apples to oranges? NO. Will we match or beat prices on apples to apples? YES... but you never have to ask us to do that. Our prices are set that way everyday. The problem is that when you see that Dive Rite Rec Wing on line for $169... that's because it is OLD OLD inventory. A model from 2 or 3 years ago. The replacement bladders may no longer be available for them. Our price may be $250 or whatever... but they're this years model with replacement bladders available...

A price is just a price... but in the world of scuba... that is not the only consideration. You've got to dig deeper... ask questions... and know that your LDS will charge you more to service things you buy online - so in the end... you don't save anything - and in many cases end up spending more... when you find out parts are no longer available etc... and you have to buy a whole new item.

2. Some online sellers offer very good technical support and online customer service... the problem is they are not there for you. You can't put that item in their hand or watch them perform the service and know they actually did what they said. I've had more than one person come into my store with items they sent back to online retailers for service - only to have them end up in my store because it wasn't serviced correctly - or at all.

As an LDS owner I want to support both the local diver and the worldwide diver by offering exceptional service... The best way I can do that is to be honest about what takes place in both arenas. As with everything else in life... there is good and bad... the scuba industry is no different.

You see, you can buy that XL Blue Polo Shirt at Macy's for $89 or maybe online for $65. You pay the $89 in Macy's for instant gratification and for no other reason. If your LDS has to constantly order stuff and expects you to pay $89.... then I'd laugh at them. You've lost the primary reason to overpay them - which is instant gratification. Now if they'll order it for you for $65 and match - then maybe it's still worth doing business with them - you'd have to order it from the other place anyway.... so why not support the LDS.

The arguments about "where to get air" and "training" are all really moot points. Most people can get air where they're going diving... be it a quarry, boat trip etc... and there will always be an airfill station near the popular dive sites. For those in the back woods diving in bathtubs... they'll buy compressors.

Training is something that is taught independently by Certified Instructors from many organizations. Instructors teach scuba - not dive shops. It is just that historically these instructors found their students in dive shops... so we'd need a slight change there.

The bottom line reason to support LDS's is to keep you instant gratification in place. The problem is that many LDS's don't provide that. They don't keep enough stock... and they always have to order it for you. If that is the case, you may as well buy it on the internet and save a few bucks. This is what the LDS owners (at least many of them) fail to understand.

If you have to order it for me - you can't expect me to pay full price.

 

[ScubaRich]

Offthewall, Nicely done.