LDS -vs- Online purchases

[bsee65]

Hey OffTheWall, I have some questions for you.

In some businesses, bicycles for one, the manufacturer covers the costs of warranty issues. The local dealer can easily break even, and sometimes profit, by doing warranty work. Is it not the same in SCUBA? Why should any LDS eat the cost of parts and/or labor for a manufacturer's product that fails?

With regard to a five year old product no longer having replacement parts available, isn't that a failure of the manufacturer? What is the life expectancy of a piece of gear, and why would anyone buy an expensive piece of gear if it can only be maintained for a couple years? Aren't there manufacturers out there who will be able to support their products for as long as they are expected to last? Dive Rite, for example, claims a "limited lifetime warranty" for their wings. If the purchase was from an authorized dealer, why would I care if they don't have replacement parts available? They should replace my product if they can't repair it as long as I purchased it from a proper channel, right?

Personally, I find there are quite a few local businesses who will match prices or deal to be competitive. If I am starting a relationship with a new local business, I will tell the owner/manager that I prefer to buy from them than over the internet. That I don't need them to beat internet pricing, but I do need them to be in the ballpark. For me, that's typically about 10% on most in-stock items. Very inexpensive items can carry a larger profit, and more expensive items, especially those that need to be special ordered, will have less room for mark-up. If I'm paying up front to order something, then I pretty much expect something within a few bucks of a price match. If the dealer doesn't have to carry the inventory and has the cash in hand before they are billed for the item, they shouldn't need as large a profit on that item in order to stay around. Speaking of cash, I will also offer to pay by cash or check when I am looking for the best deal. The smaller local businesses will often appreciate the savings of the credit card fees and the guarantee of payment that comes from cash in hand, passing that savings on to me.

 

[offthewall1]

Hey OffTheWall, I have some questions for you.

In some businesses, bicycles for one, the manufacturer covers the costs of warranty issues. The local dealer can easily break even, and sometimes profit, by doing warranty work. Is it not the same in SCUBA? Why should any LDS eat the cost of parts and/or labor for a manufacturer's product that fails?.

Generally speaking, manufacturers of SCUBA equipment do provide parts for warranty service, but the process is a burden

[/QUOTE]With regard to a five year old product no longer having replacement parts available, isn't that a failure of the manufacturer? What is the life expectancy of a piece of gear, and why would anyone buy an expensive piece of gear if it can only be maintained for a couple years?.[/QUOTE]

It is my opinion that most of the manufacturers have replacement parts available for more than 5 years... some for as many as 25 years or more. The sad part is that the life expectancy of much of what is made today in SCUBA has gone the way of automobiles. In the old days cars were built to last. Now they are built to fail. The same goes for scuba and many other products. They just aren't made like they used to be.


[/QUOTE] Aren't there manufacturers out there who will be able to support their products for as long as they are expected to last? Dive Rite, for example, claims a "limited lifetime warranty" for their wings. If the purchase was from an authorized dealer, why would I care if they don't have replacement parts available? They should replace my product if they can't repair it as long as I purchased it from a proper channel, right?.[/QUOTE]

I don't believe any manufacturer of Scuba Equipment will be able to support their products for as long as they're expected to last. Saying so would be like saying Chrysler and GM could support their autos for as long as they're suppose to last. We all know the difficulty in finding parts for older cars.

Depending upon what is spelled out in the warranty, if a product fails under the warranty and parts are not available to fix the item, then YES, I would agree the item should be replaced under warranty.

[/QUOTE]Personally, I find there are quite a few local businesses who will match prices or deal to be competitive. If I am starting a relationship with a new local business, I will tell the owner/manager that I prefer to buy from them than over the internet. That I don't need them to beat internet pricing, but I do need them to be in the ballpark. For me, that's typically about 10% on most in-stock items.[/QUOTE]

I'd call what you do fair and responsible buying. I do have to ask however if you do the same thing at the grocery store and in department stores or for that matter at Best Buy? If you don't, then I see no reason you should expect to do it at your local dive shop.


[/QUOTE]Very inexpensive items can carry a larger profit, and more expensive items, especially those that need to be special ordered, will have less room for mark-up. If I'm paying up front to order something, then I pretty much expect something within a few bucks of a price match. If the dealer doesn't have to carry the inventory and has the cash in hand before they are billed for the item, they shouldn't need as large a profit on that item in order to stay around. Speaking of cash, I will also offer to pay by cash or check when I am looking for the best deal. The smaller local businesses will often appreciate the savings of the credit card fees and the guarantee of payment that comes from cash in hand, passing that savings on to me.[/QUOTE]

The final word is this... everyone in this economy has their spending limits. Business owners know what their profit/loss statement looks like. Good business owners make adjustments to their local market conditions to allow their survival. Bad business owners fail to make these adjustments. The internet age just threw a wrench into an otherwise simple process. In the old days you competed with the other store down the street. Now you compete with stores in totally different areas of the country. What this means is that Store A (your local LDS in say New York) pays $5000 a month in rent. Store B (the internet seller operating out of his garage pays $0 rent. Store A pays employees and insurance... store B does not. The playing field is completely stacked against your LDS. Compounded by the fact that the internet seller who has no overhead expenses has more cash to buy in higher volume - thus getting better pricing than your LDS. You can start doing the math yourself... but suffice it to say... no LDS without an Internet presence will have a chance in the modern world. They can not beat internet pricing - thus they prey on the few who unknowingly walk into their store and overpay.

Stores like mine are the wave of the future. LDS's with at least some form of internet selling presence... whether selling with their own online site (like Off The Wall Scuba - Learn to Scuba Dive in class and online in Baltimore, MD or Scuba Gear Scuba Diving Equipment Discount dive gear Snorkeling Equipment and Wetsuits Cheap online etc...) or via underground channels such as covertly on Ebay or Amazon etc...

Consumers will continue to pinch pennies... and the tighter the pinching gets... the more the LDS will be squeezed out of existence. The ultimate blame (in my opinion) lies with MAP and MARP pricing from manufacturers... but consumer spending is not helping.

 

[diveandclimb]

As much as penny pinching is a real issue its not the whole story. Although I purchase many large items online because in the end my LDS really can't match prices and I don't have enough cash to buy all the gear I wan't as it is so I can't affford to pay 25-50% more in many cases I do try to buy as much as I can from them because of what they don't charge me for. For example, along with my $30 in tank rentals I usually get a total of 30 minutes of time on either end talking about bouyancy control and gear configuration and visibility etc. Because when I go to drop off my tanks they remember my name and where I was diving and where I was diving two weeks before so they can be like "Hey was Old Garden Beach warmer than Folly cove?" And because I go on DM lead shore dives with them which they do charge like 5 bucks for but they also provide dive flags etc for free. And because I know they have to pay huge amounts of rent to be in the super convenient urban location that they are. So in the end, as much as it hurts to pay extra I do my best to at every possible opportunity because if they went out of business I would be screwed and because I feel like I should pay something for all the joy they provide me as a diver.

 

[leabre]

Recently I tried to get my SP regs serviced. They were purchased authorized by an LDS that was taken over by another owner recently. It is a near pain to prove I purchased authorized. Mainly, I had a busted water pipe that destroyed some paper work but luckily just IRS stuff, not my precious purchase receipt of SP authorized gear.

Multiple local LDS refused to service them because I didn't initially have my receipt. Something about 1) manufacturer prohibits service on anauthorized gear (unauthorized being anything I can't prove I purchased "legit") or 2) if I didn't purchase it from that shop, they won't service it. Period.

I did eventually find one that gave me mucho crap about it and nearly tripled their prices, but I eventually found the receipt and service history and it all blew over with a warning that next year, don't bring it if I didn't purchase it from them.

That said, I've decided that there is no further incentive for me to pay rediculous MSRP to a shop that will treat me that way. There is really no incentive for me to purchase from a LDS or authorized dealer if the end result will be such a hassle or if I lose a receipt it is all moot. The $200-300 I'd save online could take about 4-8 years to break-even on in parts. That's what it's coming to for me.

What happens if I purchase from a friend? How common is it to do that in this industry? In the end, I have to drive about 1 hr. away to hopefully avoid this crap. I realize some of it is the manufacturer, but price-fixing is just not good for consumers and they call it "market value". No, it is not fair market value, there is no other equivelent comparable from same manufacturers that includes their warranty benefits.

But the rest is just bad attitude most likely resulting from this economy. I know that LDS must stay in business, but treating me that way for a repair that I know I paid full price for but just couldn't find my receipt (I moved twice since the purchase and had a flood), to refuse service on me and treaet me that way is no way to guarantee I'll ever return even for an airfill. If it came down to it, since I have the funds, I'd sooner put an airfill station in my garage.

Anyway, for computers and regs I prefer to purchase locally, everything else can be had wherever price is cheaper.

Thanks,
Shawn

 

[leabre]

Let's not forget about the age old debate about just how quickly you will die if you use Home Dept less expensive stainless clips versus the more expensive stainless clips from the LDS.

How funny. I actually paid $9.95 for 2 bolt-snaps at an NLDS (non-local dive shop) and many locals didn't have any in stock, could order them, but prices weren't terribly better (maybe $6 at best).

Lo and behold, I was looking for something at Home Depot about 3 weeks ago and saw the exact same bolt-snap (stanless steel or brass) for $1.25 each. I realized I'd been had. At the point, not even LP or scuba.com (scuba.com is across the street from where I work) had better prices. Home Depot just became part of my inner-circle of must-buy-from's for some types of scuba related equipment.

We all have our price points on certain items. The same people who spend $1,200 on a canister light will balk at paying $5/lb for weights. I might spend $800 on a dive computer I want, $800 on a lessor can light than the $1.2k variety, and even $500 on my hyperstretch wetsuit for comfort, but $9.95 for a bolt-snap is just highway robery. Now if the LDS salesperson were just wearing a hooded vest and maybe some swimming goggles while approaching me I'd think I was being mugged.

 

[leabre]

The used compressors you are talking about will probably come from those who've tried and failed to make money off just a compressor. It'll sell to the next wide-eyed optimist, who will likely figure out the same thing as the previous owner in a year or so.

Actually, if the first person spent top $ for a new compressor and could not break-even, then the next wide-eyed optimist who just purchased that compressor for 60% the original value will have less money to make to become profitable. If he is unable to break even, then the next wide-eyed optimist to purchase that same compressor for a bit less yet will have even less money to pay back to break even.

If times are really tough, then the thief who just stole that compressor can become profiable instantly because he has very little cost to pay back. (I say this as a joke).

The point is, where there be demand somone will find a way to meet it, and profitably. And most likely it won't be the person who spends $10k on a NITROX compatible compressor to meet a demand of a few divers per day if that. It'll be taht person who already had a compressor or but one used and in working order for about $3k instead and may not depend solely on the compressor for putting food on the table. That same person also might already know how to perform maintenance himself so has a slightly reduced on-going cost.

This thread gets old. #76. I braved it. Off to bed. . z Z

 

[therealwwdiver]

I work at a shop in Seabrook Tx, we have a growing clientel. We match online prices everyday. Just part of the gig... All of our prices are clearly marked so theres no surprises. All we need is proof that someone else has something that we offer at a certain price and we're usually all over it... The thing that terrifies me is what one of the earlier posters had to say about being scared to mention it for fear...

T2medic is right on. I manage a retail establishment that has been in business for 50 years. I, and my salespeople, encourage people to shop us online if they would like so that we can adjust our price if necessary. The reality of the current business environment, in my opinion, is that the internet is the NEW competition to any brick and mortar establishment that is selling a product that is easily price checked. The internet is effectively eliminating both wholesale and retail pricing but I am proud to say that our business has and will continue to be profitable and will offer a place for hundreds of people to work. My experience with diving is similar to that of my first car purchase. I think my NOOB ignorance was taken advantage of both times. Consequently, my chagrin is not necessarily with either the LDS or the dealership, but with myself for not investing more time in the initial purchases. The
obvious irony is that all of us are reading this information and having this argument VIA THE INTERNET. It is here to stay and any business that doesn't recognize this simple fact is doomed to fail. It's an old saying in sales that still holds true: "quality is remembered long after price is forgotten". The aim of my store is to offer the best quality of customer service in the industry. Low price, because of the internet, is a foregone conclusion....