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A mentor might be right for you, but what happens if they are not prepared for the situation they are presented with. And if you tell me that they should enroll in some sort of "mentor class" is that not basically the same as an "instructor class" that has a different name?
While it did not turn out that way, when I wrote the NAUI DM course it was my intent that it become a program for training mentors for all courses beyond OW (which I knew it would not fly for). It did not work out that way in all respects, but you will note that the NAUI DM is a dash out of place in the hierarchy when compared to other agencies ... that is why.
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So basically, I think its great to have a mentor, I had one in my instructor class and he and I are still really great friends. But when learnign to scuba dive I believe that its best left up to qualified professionals, not that an open water diver can not become an instructor (thats where we all start out).
Qualified does not equal instructor does not equal professional ... that's at the crux of the issue.
Too many recreational DMs and Instructors start from a very low personal skill base and add very little to that during training. I constantly see such people at work, and I am sure that many have never had to deal with a real emergency and come out successfully the other side. How can one expect them to be any different, given the very low experience levels required?
Although I found the system too slow and partial for my taste, the BSAC club system of mentoring AND instruction is IMO the best way to learn quality diving.
Just my 2p-worth.
Hear! Hear! (to use the British applause).
I would not have expected less from you.
You mean in your own particular experience? Could you also explain why a non professional is likely to do as good a job
or better as a
professional certified diving instructor. I emphasises the word
professional because not all divers with an instructor certifiction work as instructors. My sister has a degree in architecture but she would never refer to herself as an
architect.
Perhaps it is because the professional standards are so low. I'd place most of the blame for this on the "Professional" Development Instructor mills and the one to two candidate, on demand, ITCs that are all the rage today. In my experience, and that is limited, those you'd refer to as
Professional certified diving instructors are, both in terms of median value and who's at the top of the heap, almost invariably, inferior to the
Amateur certified diving instructors, but that's a whole separate thread.
...yes?
When is your life story going to be made into a blockbuster?
Already done.
There are those who knowing me in my youth when I was 6’2” and a rather muscular 190 lbs., with a clean shaven, cleft chin, thick brown curly hair that fell down to my shoulders, as well as the dead give away: "opaline green eyes both alluring or intimidating, as need be", have always maintained that Clive Custler based Dirk Pitt on me (somethink that both Custler and I deny. I suspect Pitt was based on Dirk Rosen of Deep Ocean Engineering but with my eyes).
Sounds totally normal to me but it doesn't make the case why mentors are better than instructors. Is that the instructor's fault or the student's? Thank God, times have changed. AI is about learning about PADI. The knowledge and skill developments are at DM and IE level.
You are misinterpreting the evidence, all that I was observing was there there was nothing in the AI program that I had not previously learned in a mentored situation.
This is where your own experience departs from the reality of almost everybody else on the Board, Thal. How many of us do you think have been privileged to do a research diving course at place like Cal? When I was a kid, I didn't even know such a thing existed. Of course in the context of your life and experience, certified recreational scuba instructors mean almost nothing. However, it doesn't mean you should go around deriding us, belittling what we do and making a case for people to seek out mentors rather than instructors.
Please do not think that I am deriding you personally, I always try to leave an out in my statement for the really good but slightly misguided.
All any of us can do is relate our experiences. I'm happy to grant you that mine are two standard deviations out, in almost all ways. But I have had the chance to watch what has happened to the more mainstream community and it leaves me concerned. I will grant you that I am making this case, currently, more out of dismay as to what has become of a credential that I used to respect and we should all be concerned that the case is, in fact, so easy to make.
An ITC/IQC is not designed to teach you anything about diving. You should be proficient before enrolling, which you were. That doesn't reflect very well on the Course Director/Instuctor Trainer. Who by your own account was a fantastic mentor and a not very good instructor trainer.
No, that's not what I said. Once again I had the same experience as I did with AI, there was nothing in the ITC/IQC (that others raved about) that I had not previously learned in a mentored situation.
How do you become a DAN O2 Instructor without going through instructor training?
I was mentored through the program whilst it was still in development, my DAN 02 Instructor number is in the low two digits.
The fact that you already knew, as did I, most of what they were teaching you, doesn't make their work useless. You're talking about students who have had a previous exposure to all the topics covered, have a wealth of dive experience and are also self learners. I don't pretend to be in your league, Thal, but almost everything I know, I learned reading a book or just doing it. On the other hand I've had instructors who taught me important things. Did they mentor me? Some did and some, to the contrary, would have gained great satisfaction if they'd seen me drop out or give up. OK. So we have some experiences in common and some totally different. It still doesn't hold up an argument for eliminating instructors in favor of friendly waving mentors.
All that I'm saying it that blanket dismissal of good mentors in favor of certified sometimes idiots is not always a good policy. Got to take it case by case, person by person.
That simply isn't true, I'm sorry. I didn't think very much of most of the people who did the IE with me but the point is that however superior I may have felt towards those people, they did it and got ther card. Frankly, it was a humbling experience.
... and humble or proud neither you nor I would send anyone we cared about to them for instruction ... right?
No it isn't. There is an independent impartial exam and the candidate has already done DM and an IDC.
But none of those things assure the quality of the product anymore. There appears to have been a time when it did ... but not anymore.
Are you saying that recreational scuba instructors are underpaid or have I misunderstood you?
I pay a lot more for a fencing coach, or an Aikido sensei, or a riding instructor or a pistol instructor or a ski instructor. What do you think?
You're assuming that we are all capable of doing something else than instructing and that we instruct only for fun... what's wrong with being a professional scuba instructor?
In specific cases, nothing. In most cases ... its someone of small accomplishment, marking time till they drop out of diving and go back to doing something else, little knowledge, little skill, little hope and few prospects. That said ... I recognize that there are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions.
You have a very warped reading of what actually happened, how and why. ...VERY FLAWED ARGUMENT. All sports existed before they became organized by leagues, asociations and agencies, so what? "They" haven't, and there are many agencies. The fact that there are many agencies is very good for scuba diving since we all have a choice as to who to train with. It's interesting to note that you chose to train with "them" There isn't a flaw in my premise just because you type "there is a flaw in your premise" Yes, I am one of those people..what are you driving at? Ignorance is bliss.
Not really, the "Professional" diving instructor is a johnny-come-lately on the scene that has striven to push the amateur instructor and the mentor out of the picture.
I make my living from teaching scuba. I think you are being rude. I also think you don't know what you are talking about or who you are talking to. So I will continue to press the case for scuba diving to be taught only by certified instructors and to vouch for the law to chastise people who risk students' lives by pretending to be what they are not. There is no such thing as too much training. I sincerly hope you learn that. What other activities were you thinking of?
Hm ... "people who risk students' lives by pretending to be what they are not." From where I sit that is a great description of most of the agencies and most of the recreational instructors that I've seen (let's say most of the recreational instructors with less than three years of experience just to be clear).
I thought you were interested in discussing the topic but you now just seem to want to engage in a semantics argument. The big problem I see is that you wear your "instructor hat" to prominently and have forgotten that on this board you are just a diver like everyone else. Step off your self important soapbox already. I thought I was being fairly representative of both sides of the fence but we know what that gets you when debating with someone of a polarized viewpoint. You typed a bunch of trite, short retorts to my points that don't really make any sense at all but I guess... just because you type something... covers all the bases and is the perfect answer to any argument.
I think you're being a little harsh ... we are all blind men describing the areas of the elephant that we have felt.
Diver Certification, an overview.
Over the years the whole system of diving education has been for the most part a system of diminishing returns. I'll try to explain what I mean:
1. In the past (60's) many certified Instructors were ex-Navy divers, They trained others in the Navy way. The result were gung-ho people who loved diving and taught for the love of diving with little income (if any);
No, in the early 60s most were academics and recreation people, the large influx of military came with the PADI send-a-CHECK-in-for-an-instructor-card policy.
2. These Instructors formed Instructor Associations. NAUI is an example;
NAUI was formed as an outgrowth of a column in Skin Diver Magazine, based on the model of the National Ski Patrol.
3. The majority of SCUBA training was undertaken within Clubs. The "business" or "diving industry" was yet to be born;
More or less, dive shops were also big but often had "shop cards."
4. Enter PADI, who brought a "keen business approach" to diving. Focus was taken off safety, fitness & inclusive and training became modular as a means of increasing profit;
fair enough.
5. Diver training began to be undertaken for profit as a means to sell equipment. The primary mode of diver training was transferred from Clubs to LDSs;
From clubs to LDSs ... not sure about that.
6. Diver standards began to drop again. Clients were given what they wanted, a quick and easy road to diver certification. Course requirements continued to be lowered.
Yes.
7. As the end result required less of the individual, Instructors required less knowledge to teach programs. An Instructor needs only to know what s/he is required to teach; standards continue to drop.
Yes. And ITCs grew smaller and became much easier to slide through as it is harder to flunk your only student than it is say: five out of fourty candidates.
8. Lower standards for Instructors and the entire diver training system. Old knowledge and experiences are lost. Skills like buddy breathing and decompression table usage are moved to "optional" areas of the training program and then "not required." These skills will soon not be necessary and even Instructors will not possess them.
Yes.
9. Diver training provides more and more certifications that require DM/Instructor supervision. Certified divers start to lose the ability to dive independently and this skill is seen as something for more advanced certifications. This impacts the Dive Charter Operators;
Yes.
10. The future.....?
What do you think?
Hopefully honesty will rear its head and the industry will stop pretending that divers are ready to operate independently.
