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Rhone,

O2 Tox is a function of pressure and duration. You can handle a high pressure for a short duration, or a low pressure for a long duration. But if you choose a high partial pressure for a long duration, then you risk the possibility of toxing out.

Conventional modern standards are relatively conservative as modern science does not fully understand all the factors, or how they might work together. Overall fitness, conditioning, CO2, and environmental factors all play roles that can make one very susceptible to toxing one day, and very resistant the next. If you stay within modern standards, you should be okay?

Almost 30 years ago I was required to take an O2 tolerance test for commercial dive school. This was a standard test for commercial and military divers. 2 ATA for 30 minutes in a chamber setting. I passed, but a lot of guys did not, and if you toxed you were kicked out. Eventually, they realized that the test was worthless, as it proved nothing because of all the variables, and that the standards were too aggressive. There is no O2 tolerance test currently used.

Bottom line is that if you push the modern limits, you could get caught short, and very few guys tox in the water and live to tell about it.

Cheers

JC



Bret, not sure if you are monitoring this thread, but if you are, I would actually be more interested to hear your thoughts on O2 tox risk (rather than narcosis risk, which most people have fixated on). What sort of planning/strategy did you use to manage the risk?



Might take you up on that - do you ship internationally?
 
...

Almost 30 years ago I was required to take an O2 tolerance test for commercial dive school. This was a standard test for commercial and military divers. 2 ATA for 30 minutes in a chamber setting. I passed, but a lot of guys did not, and if you toxed you were kicked out. Eventually, they realized that the test was worthless, as it proved nothing because of all the variables, and that the standards were too aggressive. There is no O2 tolerance test currently used.

...
Not that it matters, since (as you note) they've been shown to be meaningless, but ... wasn't your O2 tolerance test at 60fsw? I've never heard of one being run at 33fsw.
 
Might take you up on that - do you ship internationally?

He said you should e-mail him - he'll take care of you there :wink:
 
Bret, not sure if you are monitoring this thread, but if you are, I would actually be more interested to hear your thoughts on O2 tox risk (rather than narcosis risk, which most people have fixated on). What sort of planning/strategy did you use to manage the risk?<...>

Rhone,

O2 Tox is a function of pressure and duration. You can handle a high pressure for a short duration, or a low pressure for a long duration. But if you choose a high partial pressure for a long duration, then you risk the possibility of toxing out.

Conventional modern standards are relatively conservative as modern science does not fully understand all the factors, or how they might work together. Overall fitness, conditioning, CO2, and environmental factors all play roles that can make one very susceptible to toxing one day, and very resistant the next. If you stay within modern standards, you should be okay?<...>

Cheers

JC
Here's a strategy for short SIT, back-to-back hyperoxic nitrox deco gas dives thought to mitigate the potential for ox tox:
As far as these multi-dive days, the biggest risk is really not getting bent, the biggest risk is oxygen exposure, oxygen damage and of course tox. You want to plan your dives so that you're not loaded up with oxygen too early in the game. If you do, when you get to your last dive you can't use it if you need it, so to speak. What I tend to do is to use the deeper deco gasses on the first dive and add the shallower deeper gasses after we do more dives. So let's say it's a two-dive day — two [back-to-back] 250ft dives. I'll breathe my 70ft bottle and deco out without oxygen on the first one and I'll add the oxygen to the second one. I generally won't do a full-blown all-gasses-deal each time because I don't want to build up the exposure.<...>

We did a whole series of body recoveries in Palm Beach where we didn't have enough divers and I had to dive repeatedly. I did a lot of back to back to back 250's with not even an hour in between them, maybe 30 minutes. I did the same deco on each one and it didn't make any difference at all. I started with 50[eanx] and then I do 50[eanx] and oxygen, some of them we did [both deco at] 20ft and 50ft [depths]depending on what it was. We had to stay right on the bottom because that's the only way you can see — so it was all rectangular. You can't see down. and it's too dark, so you have to look sideways. On these offshore trips I'd always carry extra oxygen just in case there was a problem and I had to get back in the water.<...>

I've done that for years, repeated dives and back-to-back dives, and it's never been an issue. But I also ascend real carefully. I think the bigger issue is tox.<...>
BAUE George Irvine Lecture
 
Yesterday, while breathing Triox 25/25 at Dutch Springs, I had the chance to contemplate helium vs. air diving.

Recently, I had made 2 dives on the Jodrey with Trimix 18/48 (final analysis shooting for 18/45) to 161 feet. The week prior, I was diving Nitrox 32 at Dutch Springs filming a GUE Fundies class with a max depth of 30 feet. The week after the Jodrey, I was diving to 80 feet in Bermuda on air, and yesterday, I dove Triox 25/25 at Dutch Springs teaching class to 90 feet.

Of these, the worst dives were dive 1 & 2 on the Trimix 18/45 to the Jodrey and yesterday's dive on Triox 25/25. Yesterday, I hit cold water after a week in Bermuda and was back in a drysuit, doubles, hood, argon bottle, stage, etc., so I just wasn't feeling into the groove despite the fact that mix helped me notice a few details about "my office" that I hadn't noticed before on the deeper sites. But, I'll share what I learned about deep diving from my recent dives based on experience.


The problem with diving the Jodrey was that on the first day, we had a team of 3 in which not all divers had been diving together prior to that dive. Added to which, we decided to take Gavin scooters. One diver teaches Gavins, the other just took his course, and the third (me) has only used a Gavin on 3 dives. I expressed my aversion to making a dive with an unpracticed team and with not having the ability to play with a Gavin the day before to get settled into the "feel" of that model scooter. But, the third guy in the team was willing to pay for the trimix if we scootered.

Note: Notice that this is much like deciding to "dial a high" in trimix diving when cost of helium dictates how impaired you will be regarding an END due to what mix you find acceptable. While we may have been on the best standard gas for a 160 foot dive, we decided to operate with the additional risk and complexity of possibly having to handle emergencies with scooters. This may not have been the wisest decision for inexperienced Gavin pilots who never worked together as a team prior to that dive.

A skilled team used to working together, and with many hours on the Gavin scooters, probably would have been safer and performed better at 160 feet on air or enriched air than we did on trimix that day. The gas certainly helped us. The selected handicaps didn't help us. While in shallow water, I made the call to thumb the dive based on scooters and the team decided to ditch the scooters. After the dive, the third guy in the team that wanted to scooter was happy that I made that call. Our ascent together was sloppy due to team communication. We also didn't have a solid deco plan so the team captain called it and we played followed the leader.

The second day, we still had good gas in our favor. We then had one dive together that helped assess the team's strengths and weaknesses. We left the scooters, came up with a better deco gas plan, but we took on the handicap of diving with a group of Canadian friends who arrived in their RIB. We had three teams of 3, 2 and 2 going to exactly the same spot on the wreck. It was the DIR version of a recreational wreck diving cluster. 3 cameras - video and still - blinding subjects with strobes and video lights, all divers looking identical, posing, smiling, profiling, losing buddy awareness, tight teams breaking into temporary or loose teams, and teams reforming. The good news was that we had good gas, standardized procedures, and the same exact training. Should something have gone wrong, we had the ability to fix it with anyone from any team. However, the lack of constant vigilant awareness could have placed a team member at risk of falling through the cracks of that awareness. More than once I truly believed my buddy was still right by my side only to discover it wasn't my buddy and that my buddy needed to be located. I decided to just stop my part in the madness and become the lifeguard by just staying put in one spot on the wreck so my two buddies could constantly reference me during filming and sight-seeing and I could watch everyone. The good part was that our deco went perfectly and we acted and moved as a team in textbook fashion. Until 20 feet, where we didn't have a plan due to leaving a second gas switch option open. That resulted in a board meeting on wetnotes.

Lesson: While decreased awareness and attention to safety is often blamed on air and narcosis, the lack of awareness caused by too many "same-same" divers with too many distractions such as the sort that occurs during filming, can create the same if not more dangerous, lapses in attention and reaction time.

Also, while those of us with training and experience with calculating deco on the fly, may elect to do so, much confusion and stress can be removed from a dive with a solid plan. One concern I have about new trimix divers is that they may believe they are bullet-proof on trimix and a moving target on nitrox and sitting ducks on air. It should be understood that the use of trimix does not remove a diver's need to place the same emphasis on dive planning and team familiarity that has been practiced by deep air divers to increase their safety when diving somewhat impaired. Two drunks with a plan may operate better than two sober people with a blurry strategy.


Conclusion: There is far more to safety when deep diving than just "narcosis management." While trimix is definitely an excellent tool to add to the equation of the planning and execution of any dive, it is not a magic formula for safety and performance. Divers must assess all the variables and parameters on dives to determine which ones will present the greatest problems for safety. Whether oxygen partial pressures, END's, decompression obligations, thermal issues, team experience, etc., each one becomes a vital figure in accident prevention and dive success. We stack the odds in our favor by balancing all potential threats, complications, standard procedures, benefits, and ad-libs on the scale of prudence.
 
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Not that it matters, since (as you note) they've been shown to be meaningless, but ... wasn't your O2 tolerance test at 60fsw? I've never heard of one being run at 33fsw.

:D:D:D You know the answer to that question. :shakehead::shakehead::shakehead:
 
Just want to keep the thread correct, we all make those sorts of oversights at times. Trust me, John can take the pressure.:D
 
Not that it matters, since (as you note) they've been shown to be meaningless, but ... wasn't your O2 tolerance test at 60fsw? I've never heard of one being run at 33fsw.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the test is meaningless. It does identify those individuals who are highly reactive to oxygen. The U.S. Navy / Coast Guard discontinued the testing because they claimed it did not have "highly reliable results." Hyperbaric oxygen tolerance testing is still a requirement for all diving candidates in Canada and other allied countries and is still used by several areas of the commercial diving sector.

Testing results for some reason are more accurate in a wet chamber, but usually performed "dry" for safety reasons. Most tests are given in a hyperbaric chamber in two parts, a 60 FSW exposure (as you mentioned) for 60 minutes on O2 and 165 FSW exposure on air. ADCI training standards do not require O2 tolerance testing for commercial diving, however it's a requirement of some schools, contractors and insurance companies.
 
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165 FSW on air for how long?

At DCIEM, the second test starts with a pre-dive briefing; which includes a review of chamber/decompression safety policy. Candidates are asked to verify that they understand this policy by signing the form.

The candidates enter the chamber and the dive commences. Once they are at 165 FSW for 10 minutes, they are asked to perform a 10 minute evaluation (dexterity and math) and sign their submission.

Once the candidates get to their first decompression stop, they review their answers which provides some comic relief during the wait. The evaluations are reviewed topside, including a signature comparison and video review, as required.

I'm sure different organizations do things differently. The Facility at DCIEM is unique in that approximately half of the chamber can be flooded with over 5000 gallons of fresh water which can be chilled for experimental dives to temperatures as low as 3°C and can simulate a depth of 5000 FSW. Lots of fun. :)
 

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