40m without deep specialty?

[JonBath]

Well some were just to highlight the difficulty at where you draw the line between rec and tech diving. Similarly it was pretty amusing to see the differences between the PADI RDP and the BSAC tables, highlighting how often PADI uses mandatory 'safety stops' to slip in deco dives under the radar without alarming the PADI recreational divers taught from OW that deco is the preserve of the tech crowd.

Though to be honest, I don't disagree with PADI on this one. 40m is way too deep for new or beginner divers. An AOW graduate could have only 9 dives under their belt under the PADI system and in my mind would have no place that kind of depth. With experience perhaps, but given the propensity of most new students to push their limits in practise the 30m limit for most PADI divers works pretty well in my opinion.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Well some were just to highlight the difficulty at where you draw the line between rec and tech diving. Similarly it was pretty amusing to see the differences between the PADI RDP and the BSAC tables, highlighting how often PADI uses mandatory 'safety stops' to slip in deco dives under the radar without alarming the PADI recreational divers taught from OW that deco is the preserve of the tech crowd.

Though to be honest, I don't disagree with PADI on this one. 40m is way too deep for new or beginner divers. An AOW graduate could have only 9 dives under their belt under the PADI system and in my mind would have no place that kind of depth. With experience perhaps, but given the propensity of most new students to push their limits in practise the 30m limit for most PADI divers works pretty well in my opinion.

I don't put emphasis on the diver or imaginary restrictions based off of c-cards. I only question how PADI builds dive professionals.

 

[KeysCuda]

Read many of the posts here; did skip some pages so sorry if repeat.

Most operations, in my 40 years experience as a certified diver, will take an AOW diver on just about any dive in their regular roster of sites, up to the shipwreck reefs in about 130-140 feet (cannot speak to those deeper, into tech range).
Deepest I've ever been is 185, off Tongue-of-Ocean in Bahamas, when my card still just said "Diver" (there was no such thing as AOW or Deep Diver, anything above that was DM or instructor and I had no particular desire to lead groups or teach).
Got my AOW, grumpily, in early 80s, when a replacement card came stamped: "Basic Diver! 60 feet limit!"

I've never been asked before going to a Florida or Caribbean wreck/dropoff dive, even as a first-time customer: Do you have a deep certification?
Never been advised, "Since you are an AOW diver, please stay above 100 feet." That's the operator call, of course, but if I ever heard that, it would be the last they ever saw me.

Have been more than willing, as a new customer with a liveaboard or wreck-dive operator, to make a shallow dive first (as long as its decent, if I'm paying) or do an in-water skills demo.
But don't ask me to start shelling out for incremental-skill certifications that are more about money for the agencies than anything else.

Let's be honest: Assuming you watch your time and air - basics - 130 feet ain't much different from 100 feet.

 

[JonBath]

I don't put emphasis on the diver or imaginary restrictions based off of c-cards. I only question how PADI builds dive professionals.

Well I can only speak for the two agencies I've qualified with, BSAC and PADI. My DM course was incredibly broad, informative and often challenging. It's limitations were the result of my location rather than the course. A DM trained in Uk waters for example are unlikely to suffer from the same drawbacks in terms of conditions and depths as someone like me trained in shallow warm Thai waters. On the other hand they're unlikely to have had the same experience working 4 dives a day, with 150+ divers on two boats, helping run an incredibly hectic diveshop.

Having since become an assistant instructor with BSAC I can safely say that the DM course made me a far better teacher, diver and well... generally more professional, that some of the BSAC instructors without it. That's not to say that BSAC lacks quality it's just sometimes they and the agency just don't have the same smoothness, honed by working in competitive commercial instructing. The quality of the divers put out of DM courses might sometimes vary a bit, especially in areas outside PADI's core syllabus, but the DM course in terms of producing well rounded quality dive professionals adept at working within the PADI system and standards is generally excellent.

Even if I do say so myself

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Though I do have another question at a slight tangent, considering since gaining my DM I've now crossed over to BSAC as a Dive Leader and thus now have a theoretical depth limit of 50m

For you to accept the certification you are saying that you are trained to the level expected of a BSAC Dive Leader. If you knowingly allowed it to happen without having the required training I would find you guilty of fraud as well as your instructor.

It's just I've just recently crossed over to BSAC in the last few months. My DM cert crosses over at Dive leader level in the BSAC system. Dive Leaders are certified to 50m, although I haven't got round to doing a dive that deep yet to completely finish my crossover requirements.

Did you or did you not knowingly accept certification to a level that you have not yet received the training required?

No, because I haven't finished my crossover procedure yet.

...

You've answered my question in a way though. I'd never go on a deep dive with an ass like you, regardless of training.

It's all in the verbs. If you have not been awarded the BSAC Dive Leader cert you are crossing over; to have crossed over means it is finished.

Below is from another thread, but applicable here too, no?

...

If someone gets bent out of shape over mincing words this way it's probably your own words that caused it.

 

[divebunny13]

Deepest I've ever been is 185, off Tongue-of-Ocean in Bahamas, when my card still just said "Diver" (there was no such thing as AOW or Deep Diver, anything above that .

Wonder where you did this at?

 

[KeysCuda]

Wonder where you did this at?

You gots it! When I was stiill a young man, and been meaning to get back ever since! Had a trip planned and almost booked just a few years ago, but ...stuff happens.

I remember Small Hope had an edge-of-dropoff dive the day before that effectively served as a qualifying dive for the 185, although they didn't say so (or at least tell me). Then word about the dive to the niche was circulated by word of mouth. Would love to find my "Certificate of Androsology".

Also got a lesson on the dive: Can't remember divemaster's name (hey, early 70s), but when we came up somebody asked DM how many times he'd made that dive to 185. "Once or twice a week, so...a lot."
Then the follow-up question: What's the deepest you (the DM) has ever gone down the wall? "185."
You never went deeper? "No reason to."

 

[JonBath]

It's all in the verbs. If you have not been awarded the BSAC Dive Leader cert you are crossing over; to have crossed over means it is finished.

Listen, I really don't want to argue with you. I just recently joined this board in the hope of finding reasonable people to discuss diving and get some instructing tips from. I was hoping people here would be friendly, helpful and fun, and in the main they have been, not pedantic trolls like you seem to be going out of your way to be.

I'm a member of BSAC now, when I signed the membership forms and put down PADI DM, I crossed over to Dive Leader. Ring up HQ now, ask for my member details and that would be what they would tell you I was, plus an additional Assistant Instructor cert. That is my current status in the BSAC system.

However BSAC recognises that different agencies teach different things. I haven't done the required deco or deep dives normal Dive Leaders will have done but I will have done things that most Dive Leaders haven't, mainly instructing related. It's different but equivelent experience. To facilitate that process of crossing over from different agencies BSAC offers catchup sessions to help expand on the gaps in my knowledge for my own benefit, which I'm encouraged but not required to attend. I haven't had the opportunity to do the deep dive yet, but I remain however, a Dive Leader officially speaking even if personally I'd like to 'finish' the crossover procedure by bringing my experience up to that of my peers.

The two verbs are not as mutually exclusive as you seem to suggest. It may seem to you like I'm getting 'bent out of shape' but frankly your repeated implication that I obtained my qualifications fraudently, (a serious allegation considering I'm an active DM and practising instructor) was in my eyes a completely unwarranted personal attack on myself and my professional integrity. Whilst I can accept that this may be due to your unfamiliarity with BSAC crossover procedures and poor phrasing on my part (especially my 2nd post) and in turn apologise for my own undeserved name call, I still feel that they were out of line, especially considering this is supposed to be a 'flame free' board, and completely irrelevant to my original question.

If you really want to continue this discussion feel free to PM me with your thoughts rather than continue to play out this pointless argument in public. If not maybe you could actually help contribute towards my question as to whether theoretically PADI would accept other agency deep dive experience which is what I've been asking all along.

 

[divebunny13]

The dive, if done as you describe it, should pose no problems; but advertising (even just implying) that it meets the specifications of the U.S. Navy tables is not being truthful, it does not.

Perhaps not now but maybe the tables from the '60s when the dive profile was set?

 

[divebunny13]

You gots it! When I was stiill a young man, and been meaning to get back ever since! Had a trip planned and almost booked just a few years ago, but ...stuff happens.

I remember Small Hope had an edge-of-dropoff dive the day before that effectively served as a qualifying dive for the 185, although they didn't say so (or at least tell me). Then word about the dive to the niche was circulated by word of mouth. Would love to find my "Certificate of Androsology".

Also got a lesson on the dive: Can't remember divemaster's name (hey, early 70s), but when we came up somebody asked DM how many times he'd made that dive to 185. "Once or twice a week, so...a lot."
Then the follow-up question: What's the deepest you (the DM) has ever gone down the wall? "185."
You never went deeper? "No reason to."

I love hearing old stories about Small Hope. There is so much history here!

Come back and visit us when you get the chance. I'll be here for a long while. I love it here.