My dive incident

[Jim Lapenta]

The DM did not take him on as a buddy. He told him to stay close. That is not accepting the diver as a buddy. THis is the problem with many AOW divers who really have little to no idea of what advanced dives are because giving them all the information regarding risks, preparations, equipment, gas management, etc take too much time for the instructor to pass on who is looking at only meeting minimum standards and getting credit for certs.
To the OP take a look at this thread:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ering-diving/283566-who-responsible-what.html

Then ask yourself what skills beyond the basics did your AOW instructor pass on to you? How much classroom time was involved? Did he/she stress that you were not an advanced diver but merely had the tools to work on becoming one and that the rest would come via practice? I'm guessing not. Was your buoyancy and trim decent before starting the AOW class? Could you do all skills in midwater, hovering, horizontal? If not you should not have been in an AOW class without taking time to work on the skills you were given in Open Water. This is my biggest beef with those who offer AOW immediately after OW. The student is told that it will give them the benefit of 5 more dives with an instructor. They are not told that many times the one who benefits most is the shop or instructors wallet. A card is given to someone who cannot control their buoyancy, is uncomfortable setting up their own gear or expects someone else to check it, or other basic item and it gives them access to sites and dives that they have no business being on. It is why there are posts like this. Good training in OW and AOW would have resulted in this diver having better judgment and calling the first dive before it even happened.

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

This is my biggest beef with those who offer AOW immediately after OW. The student is told that it will give them the benefit of 5 more dives with an instructor. They are not told that many times the one who benefits most is the shop or instructors wallet. A card is given to someone who cannot control their buoyancy, is uncomfortable setting up their own gear or expects someone else to check it, or other basic item and it gives them access to sites and dives that they have no business being on. It is why there are posts like this. Good training in OW and AOW would have resulted in this diver having better judgment and calling the first dive before it even happened.

All great points, thanks!

The DM did not take him on as a buddy. He told him to stay close. That is not accepting the diver as a buddy.

If I understand you correctly, the DM did not accept the diver as a buddy, nor did he(?) assign another buddy. Am I correct in assuming then that the diver in question had no buddy on the dive? If so, what is the plan for handling a gas failure at 90'? I would normally rely on my buddy's gas. Can you rely on a DM that says "stay close?"

Diving without an assigned buddy raises a red flag for me, because I can't really see the difference between this and diving solo. Not alone, perhaps, if all goes well, but effectively solo. Isn't a solo dive or dive without a buddy automatically a dive beyond the training of an OW and AOW diver? I wonder whether even a properly weighted diver with plenty of experience might balk at diving without an assigned buddy.

 

[RJP]

I wonder whether even a properly weighted diver with plenty of experience might balk at diving without an assigned buddy.

Depends on the diver and the situation. Here in NJ the approach to the buddy system is generally "we dive alone together."



On many vacation dives - given the typical choice of insta-buddies available - I'd rather KNOW I'm diving alone than THINK I have a buddy.

 

[TSandM]

People do things differently, and as far as I have observed, a lot of people feel pretty comfortable diving in a loose-knit group and not having a real assigned "buddy". I can't imagine diving that way. If I get in the water with four or more people, I insist the group get broken up into assigned teams. I want to know who I need to watch, and who I need to stay close to, and who to go to for gas if I need some.

But even my husband, who has had a lot of good quality training, has been known to say, when I whine about him getting too far away from me, "Well, there were all kinds of other people around . . . "

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

Depends on the diver and the situation. Here in NJ the approach to the buddy system is generally "we dive alone together."

People do things differently, and as far as I have observed, a lot of people feel pretty comfortable diving in a loose-knit group and not having a real assigned "buddy".

To each their own, but I am pretty clear on the fact that diving without an assigned buddy and without a specific plan to handle OOG at 90' is beyond my own training as OW/AOW/Nitrox/Rescue/Rec. Trimix.

I do not recall any of my instructors going over the "OOG when chasing a herd of coral tourists" scenario in my courses.

 

[RJP]

To each their own, but I am pretty clear on the fact that diving without an assigned buddy and without a specific plan to handle OOG at 90' is beyond my own training as OW/AOW/Nitrox/Rescue/Rec. Trimix.

I do not recall any of my instructors going over the "OOG when chasing a herd of coral tourists" scenario in my courses.

Really? Your instructor didn't cover how to get another diver's attention, signal that you're out of air, and secure either their primary or secondary reg as appropriate?

I'd have thought you'd come across that somewhere between OW and Rec. Trimix?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

To each their own, but I am pretty clear on the fact that diving without an assigned buddy and without a specific plan to handle OOG at 90' is beyond my own training as OW/AOW/Nitrox/Rescue/Rec. Trimix.

I do not recall any of my instructors going over the "OOG when chasing a herd of coral tourists" scenario in my courses.

Exactly. And this is why had the OP received proper training he would have known enough to not do the dives. That he showed up as a new diver without a buddy would have caused me, if I were the DM, to have inquired of the other divers if they were willing to buddy with him. If not there would have been two possible actions on my part, ask him if he were willing to hire a DM to buddy with him or, as I was responsible for leading a group and unable to be a proper buddy, not allowed him to do the dive. Those would have been the only options open to ME as a RESPONSIBLE DM. What others choose to do is their own business. I would rather lose the money for the dive and the tip than send a new diver to the hospital or worse.

Not exactly what the shop owner would like to hear maybe but tough shiite. I would also ask to see his logbook and upon seeing 12 dives logged with one to I believe he said 80 feet. Yes that meets deep dive standards but if a diver is certed to go to 100 then I am taking that student to 100 feet and doing it responsibly and making it very clear what is involved. Because of situations like this where the plan gets changed. There was nothing wrong with the op taking AOW divers to a 90 foot site. What is wrong is with the state of training today assuming that those "Advanced" divers know what the hell they are doing.

I just love threads like this when so many say there is nothing wrong with the way divers are trained today. Obviously there is.

As for the comments on diving alone. On a dive like this I would also prefer to be alone if I had to buddy up with an unknown. I know my limits and capabilities. I would also have the equipment to handle an OOA or LOA at depth. Otherwise I would not be doing the dive. But that knowledge, confidence, and mindset comes with experience, proper training, and knowing my gear and the environment.

 

[RJP]

That he showed up as a new diver without a buddy would have caused me...

You'll like this one, Jim:

I work on the crew of a local NJ dive boat. Here in NJ the boats are not "dive operators" in the traditional sense, but rather we are essentially "a ride to the wreck site and back." While we aren't responsible for your dive plan and we don't accompany passengers on their dives we do ask for run-times and record when everyone enters and exits the water.

So a few weeks ago we're out on a wreck laying in 140fsw. Once we're tied in, I start asking for run-times. I ask one of the passengers how long he'll be down for...

He: Just put me down for the same run-time as my buddy
Me: Who's your buddy?
He: Um, uh, I dunno...

 

[Valwood1]

More:
Making sure people put their gear on right. (I have heard of people putting on the tank with the valve facing sideways and the DM stopping them)
Remind people to make sure air is on and BCD s inflated before going in the water.
When going down, making sure everyone s coming down together - as long as they are in the DMs group.

Nothing more. Apparently I had the wrong impression of the DM from the beginning. I assumed what I had on my previous dive was the norm. It makes more sense after your comments to think that this last dive's DM is the norm and the ones that do these checks are the exception.
I also do not have a buddy to go with, so it again makes more sense to research before to see if and how they buddy you up.

Yes, you should research the dive op's buddy practices. BUT, and despite the dive op's practices and the pious pronouncements of PADI and the other organizations on buddies and buddy diving, recognize that it is hit-or-miss that you'll have an assigned-on-the-spot buddy who dives the way that you expect. I bet that most every experienced diver on this board has had an assigned buddy who just about disappeared two seconds after hitting the water, or in other ways failed to meet the usual expectations of a buddy. I certainly have, which is why, though I always stay pretty close to other divers, I don't much care about being assigned to any one person as a buddy. And it's also why you simply must attain a comfort, skill and knowledge level to take care of yourself.

 

[101recon]

I am a new diver with 12 dives so far, 2 of them being in the ocean. This past weekend, I went for the 13th and looking back, I am feeling very lucky to be alive.

I'm glad you are OK.But you may not be so lucky next time.

From one newbie to another....SLOW down bud.You are going way to fast!
Take the time to learn your gear AND yourself as a diver.Practice skills so that you don't need time to think about them.All the classes and certs are pointless if you can't apply them.
Believe me,I share your enthusiasm and can't wait to get down there and explore this beautiful,new,and exciting world.But if you rush it you will end up in the A&I forum again.