The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Crush]

My point Walter is that a PADI instructor cannot add to the standards without violating them.

Thank Heavens that there are some "conscientious objectors."

 

[*dave*]

Who gives a rats ass? They can add pretty much whatever they like to their course, but can't refuse to pass someone for failing the skill that exceeds standards.

If an instructor wants to add content to the course, what's stopping them? I add plenty of content to the SSI OW course I teach, but I don't test on it.


Maybe I'm in the dark on what a competent student looks like, so how about a video presentation from Walter, DCBC, Thal, Jim or any of the others claiming a superior course? I've posted some of mine, but I get the feeling they are miles behind what you guys are putting out and I'd honestly and sincerely love to see a sampling of your product.

C'mon guys, let's see what you have.

My point Walter is that a PADI instructor cannot add to the standards without violating them.

 

[DCBC]

Who gives a rats ass? They can add pretty much whatever they like to their course, but can't refuse to pass someone for failing the skill that exceeds standards.

If an instructor wants to add content to the course, what's stopping them? I add plenty of content to the SSI OW course I teach, but I don't test on it.


Maybe I'm in the dark on what a competent student looks like, so how about a video presentation from Walter, DCBC, Thal, Jim or any of the others claiming a superior course? I've posted some of mine, but I get the feeling they are miles behind what you guys are putting out and I'd honestly and sincerely love to see a sampling of your product.

C'mon guys, let's see what you have.

Sorry Dave, but as far as PADI is concerned that's just not true. Give them a call yourself and ask: "What additional "course content" can a PADI Instructor add to a PADI OW program?"

Earlier in this thread we discussed PADI's "gray area." As I understand it, a PADI instructor can "embellish" on the information that is contained within the course content, but cannot add anything new (see Peter Guy's comments). When you think about it, this is positive in that the course content of a program taught in Tokyo is the same as the one in New York, providing a universal standard for QA purposes (training sequence is even standardized). On the down side, as diving conditions vary the instructor does not have the same flexibility as other instructors affiliated with some other agencies (who may add more skills that are required for certification).

I'm unfamiliar with SSI. I've taught through ACUC, NAUI, CMAS, IDEA and PADI; who (with the exception of PADI) have encouraged me to teach beyond minimum standards. My training program is 50 hours in duration.

My position is that my course is NOT superior to any other instructor's 50 hour course. Certainly it may well be superior to some and inferior to others. What I can say is that if you teach a 25 hour program, you should give up teaching if you can't improve on your "product" with twice the training time.

 

[Walter]

My point Walter is that a PADI instructor cannot add to the standards without violating them.

Bob did not limit himself to PADI, he said, "If I had a son or daughter, I wouldn't recommend them to ANY instructor who taught to minimum standards ... even if those standards were set by SEI, UTD, GUE, or any other agency that purports to set high standards."

Further, I agree a PADI instructor cannot add requirements, but that does not mean he cannot add material to the class. A PADI instructor, teaching a PADI class can add material to a class. The only thing he can't do is refuse to certify the student if the additional material isn't passed. It's one factor that would stop me from ever teaching through PADI, but as a practical matter, it really doesn't matter. Students do what you tell them. They don't know what is optional and what is required. They don't ask, they just do what you tell them. So the PADI instructor can't require students to learn the extra skills, students will learn them anyway if the instructor tells them to learn them. Unless the instructor adds something that is specifically forbidden in the standards, there's no violation. Yes, I know someone in PADI headquarters told you it was a violation. So what? Someone else would have told you you can add, but can't require. PADI has published their standards. Any PADI instructor who follows the current published standards is not violating standards.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What I can say is that if you teach a 25 hour program, you should give up teaching if you can't improve on your "product" with twice the training time.

Well, you can say it ... but that don't make it something I'm gonna agree with.

NAUI's recommendation for their Scuba Diver (OW) training is, I believe, 28 hours ... I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but if memory serves that's about right.

Can someone effectively learn introductory scuba ... properly ... in that period of time?

Some can ... others cannot. Depends on the class size, the quality of the equipment you're using, and several other factors that may impact instructor time and attention. Depends on how much effort students have put into preparing for class beforehand, including enough swimming experience to be comfortable in the water. Depends on the quality of the instructor, as well as any DM's and/or AI's helping out with the class. Depends on a raft of other factors that may or may not apply to a given class.

So how is applying a standardized number of hours any better of a metric than any of these other "standards" you're objecting to?

You can't judge the quality of a class by its length ... a better metric is basing your class on the needs and aptitude of your students.

I'll still disagree with your premise that a PADI instructor is required to teach to minimum standards. I'm not a PADI instructor, and perhaps I should let them speak for themselves ... but the one I worked with back when I was a DM taught a kick-ass OW class ... the best I've ever seen ... and didn't seem terribly inhibited by minimums. Seein's how he's been doing it for something like three decades, I am skeptical about your claims about the limitations the agency places on its instructors.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[*dave*]

Sorry Dave, but as far as PADI is concerned that's just not true. Give them a call yourself and ask: "What additional "course content" can a PADI Instructor add to a PADI OW program?"

Earlier in this thread we discussed PADI's "gray area." As I understand it, a PADI instructor can "embellish" on the information that is contained within the course content, but cannot add anything new (see Peter Guy's comments). When you think about it, this is positive in that the course content of a program taught in Tokyo is the same as the one in New York, providing a universal standard for QA purposes (training sequence is even standardized). On the down side, as diving conditions vary the instructor does not have the same flexibility as other instructors affiliated with some other agencies (who may add more skills that are required for certification).

I'm unfamiliar with SSI. I've taught through ACUC, NAUI, CMAS, IDEA and PADI; who (with the exception of PADI) have encouraged me to teach beyond minimum standards. My training program is 50 hours in duration.

My position is that my course is NOT superior to any other instructor's 50 hour course. Certainly it may well be superior to some and inferior to others. What I can say is that if you teach a 25 hour program, you should give up teaching if you can't improve on your "product" with twice the training time.

Does 50 hours include checkout dives? Do you use video as a tool? Would love to see some of your students as they progress through the program.

I won't be calling PADI, but I have a hard time believing the system is that inflexible. If you do cold water checkouts, doesn't it make sense to do a pool session in wetsuit before heading to OW? Do you believe it would be a standards violation to add a wetsuit to the last pool session and expect them to perform skills at a level which meets your definition of mastery?

 

[boulderjohn]

Further, I agree a PADI instructor cannot add requirements, but that does not mean he cannot add material to the class. A PADI instructor, teaching a PADI class can add material to a class. The only thing he can't do is refuse to certify the student if the additional material isn't passed. It's one factor that would stop me from ever teaching through PADI, but as a practical matter, it really doesn't matter. Students do what you tell them. They don't know what is optional and what is required. They don't ask, they just do what you tell them. So the PADI instructor can't require students to learn the extra skills, students will learn them anyway if the instructor tells them to learn them. Unless the instructor adds something that is specifically forbidden in the standards, there's no violation.

I'll still disagree with your premise that a PADI instructor is required to teach to minimum standards. I'm not a PADI instructor, and perhaps I should let them speak for themselves ...

I can't believe I am getting back into this train wreck for this one post.

First of all, Walter's post above is perfectly correct. It is a very good explanation, in fact.

As for PADI instructors speaking for themselves,thgt is not likely because they have all left the thread in disgust. Go back through this thread yourself and you will find that they have indeed spoken for themselves on this issue again and again and again and again and again. They have posted many more times that they are sick of saying the same thing again and again and again and again.

Yet Wayne keeps posting the same thing again and again and again without any sign that he has understood.

One of two things must be true:

1. Wayne is incapable of conceiving of any situation in which something can be taught and learned without a formal written examination. Apparently he himself knows he will not remember the primary contents listed on a cereal box unless he someone gives him a test and a grade.

2. He is intentionally misrepresenting the facts and hoping no one will notice.

 

[Crush]

First of all, Walter's post above is perfectly correct. It is a very good explanation, in fact.

Yet Wayne keeps posting the same thing again and again and again without any sign that he has understood.

One of two things must be true:

I may be mistaken, but it was my impression that Wayne has indicated that there is course content/skills which: (1) he cannot teach (i.e., is forbidden to teach) as a PADI instructor as it is deemed to be too difficult or too dangerous; (2) said content is thought by him to be crucial to safe diving in his locale and other places in the world; (3) said content is currently taught by other agencies (at the basic OW level) who do not deem it to be too difficult or too dangerous; and (4) since said skills are thought by him to be crucial to safe diving in his locale and other places in the world he feels that he should not/can not pass students who aren't proficient in these skills, therefore his conscience forces him to test students in these skills and withhold their certifications if the skills are not reasonably mastered - an approach which seems to not be endorsed by PADI.

 

[DCBC]

So how is applying a standardized number of hours any better of a metric than any of these other "standards" you're objecting to?

An "increased" number of hours allows divers to become more familiar with the equipment and allows them to gain confidence with other skills. I'm not objecting to any specific "standards," as long as they adequately prepare the student for the diving conditions that they will encounter in local waters. I have stated that some standards appear to be designed for warm water vacation diving, rather that those of the North Atlantic and have found certain standards insufficient for said conditions.

I'll still disagree with your premise that a PADI instructor is required to teach to minimum standards. I'm not a PADI instructor, and perhaps I should let them speak for themselves ...

I have known many excellent PADI instructors over the past 46 years. Many of these work the "Gray Area" in a similar way as Walter has suggested. This does not however change the meaning of what is written in the standards.

Personally, I've never needed to bend standards and have always considered them minimum; they are a starting point to add to. Fortunately, my Agency allows me to add content and require it for certification. Regarding the flexibility of PADI standards, you may find some of the recent postings in the I2I area interesting.

 

[DCBC]

Does 50 hours include checkout dives? Do you use video as a tool?

Yes and yes.

If you do cold water checkouts, doesn't it make sense to do a pool session in wetsuit before heading to OW? Do you believe it would be a standards violation to add a wetsuit to the last pool session and expect them to perform skills at a level which meets your definition of mastery?

Yes, the final 2 hours of pool are in full suits, hoods and gloves. No it's not a standards violation, as the agencies encourage all instructors to surpass the minimum standards.