Split from: Are you AFRAID to Post?

[The Chairman]

If you wish to mention why you left NAUI, you should not be criticized for doing so. Your observations are honest and if someone disagrees with them, it's their right to do so.

Our professional ethics obviously differ here. You are comfortable assigning motives to an agency even though you have shown you have ample reason to resent them and are in competition with them. I, on the other hand, refuse to banter any such biased negativity around. I see it as a conflict of interest in posting honestly. It's the same reason why I won't comment on other forums except in a positive light.

By bashing another forum (agency) I would be guilty of trying to profit off of that negativity. If I have anything negative to say about that forum, it would be ONLY to my staff and the owner/operator of the forum in question. That's just part and parcel of maintaining my integrity of being an honest, albeit impassioned, poster. In the same way, when an SDI/TDI instructor slams PADI for their lack of standards, then they are using their apparent expertise to inflict harm on their competition. Whether this is done consciously or not, it's still odious to me.

Has your campaign against PADI worked? Ask the several instructors who have admitted that they do not promote ScubaBoard to their students for fear that they will be poisoned by your vitriol. I'm not making this stuff up.

It is my sincere belief that instructors bear an ethical burden to promote Scuba Diving, Safety and continuing education (learning), WITHOUT bashing our competitors. It's time to break out of the "If I don't teach/sell/dive it, it's crap" mentality and simply promote how we do things and why.

I hope this helps to illuminate my philosophy about why I hate bashing.

 

[The Chairman]

The amount of time devoted to sales (educational and gear) varies greatly from Course Director to Course Director. Some of the the agency reps are also gear reps, so the cross over of sales is pretty natural for them. I have yet to attend an ITC (this includes NAUI and SDI) where the issue of sales has been the predominate impetus. That being said, in order to get a "4" on your presentations, you must include something about "continuing education". I see this as a positive.

On the flip side to this... teaching people who have been fitted correctly is far easier than those are being distracted by ill fitting gear. Some time should be devoted to getting this process down, and it helps sales at the same time.

 

[DCBC]

Our professional ethics obviously differ here. You are comfortable assigning motives to an agency even though you have shown you have ample reason to resent them and are in competition with them. I, on the other hand, refuse to banter any such biased negativity around. I see it as a conflict of interest in posting honestly. It's the same reason why I won't comment on other forums except in a positive light.

By bashing another forum (agency) I would be guilty of trying to profit off of that negativity. If I have anything negative to say about that forum, it would be ONLY to my staff and the owner/operator of the forum in question. That's just part and parcel of maintaining my integrity of being an honest, albeit impassioned, poster. In the same way, when an SDI/TDI instructor slams PADI for their lack of standards, then they are using their apparent expertise to inflict harm on their competition. Whether this is done consciously or not, it's still odious to me.

If you say something negatively about another diving forum, whatever you say is tanted by a direct conflict of interest. If I say anything negatively about a diving training organization based on my experience, I have nothing to gain whatsoever.

I don't see that your comparison is viable. You have an active interest in ScubaBoard and I imagine that it is a profit center for you and your family. You have competitors.

As far as diving training is concerned, I do not. I donate my time to teach at a local SCUBA club. Teaching SCUBA is not a profit center for myself or my family, however this may change in the future.

Has your campaign against PADI worked? Ask the several instructors who have admitted that they do not promote ScubaBoard to their students for fear that they will be poisoned by your vitriol. I'm not making this stuff up.

You are mistaken; I do not have a "campaign against PADI." To what end? How could I benefit? I do however exercise my right to participate in a discussion and state my experiences. In fact I think that this is what everyone does here on SB; they state how they feel and base their statements on their experiences. Why should I refrain from doing so?

It is my sincere belief that instructors bear an ethical burden to promote Scuba Diving, Safety and continuing education (learning), WITHOUT bashing our competitors. It's time to break out of the "If I don't teach/sell/dive it, it's crap" mentality and simply promote how we do things and why.

I am not hesitant in a discussion to say how I feel. Do you think that when someone asks a question on SB that they want you to lie to them, or not answer the question in a truthful way? I hardly think so.

Lots of people post their preferences of where they will stay on vacation, what piece of equipment is a better choice than another manufacturer and why they think this to be true. They relate negative and positive experiences all the time. Why should they not have the freedom to do so?

I hope this helps to illuminate my philosophy about why I hate bashing.

If someone says anything negative about anything that you feel positive or neutral about you call it bashing. What do you call it if an instructor teaches a longer program and you put your 2 cents worth in and say that "That's a dinosaur way of teaching," or "You can't keep up with the times" Meanwhile you have no idea whatsoever how that instructor runs his program. If I'm to bash anything I would prefer to do it to a for-profit corporation rather than an individual.

Is it that it's alright for you to criticize, but this isn't to be considered bashing that other instructor? You brand someone as a POV Warrior because s/he doesn't agree with your POV? You express your POV quite regularly; when are you a POV Warrior, or is this just reserved as a diminutive description for you to use towards others?

All this Pete and you are the man in-charge of this Board, the holder of the TOC, the one that should lead by example. Yet you chat with your staff about others behind their back thinking that others don't understand what you are doing? Do you really think that because you don't use names that no one knows who you are referring to? What does this say about your professional ethics?

 

[The Chairman]

What does this say about your professional ethics?

You can bend it anyway you want, but BEFORE ScubaBoard was a "profit center" and BEFORE I was the owner, I abode by that philosophy. I also mostly teach for free. In fact, I can't remember the last time I charged for it. It's still a matter of honor for me.

As for my staff and I discussing you: Only when someone reports your shenanigans. We talk about all problematic posts and posters. If you would stop being so intent on pushing your POV, we would have less to do.

 

[Slamfire]

The amount of time devoted to sales (educational and gear) varies greatly from Course Director to Course Director. Some of the the agency reps are also gear reps, so the cross over of sales is pretty natural for them. I have yet to attend an ITC (this includes NAUI and SDI) where the issue of sales has been the predominate impetus. That being said, in order to get a "4" on your presentations, you must include something about "continuing education". I see this as a positive.

On the flip side to this... teaching people who have been fitted correctly is far easier than those are being distracted by ill fitting gear. Some time should be devoted to getting this process down, and it helps sales at the same time.

Fair enough. However, the sales oriented instructor is only a small point in a much more comprehensive conversation. Do you come out of DEMA meetings totally happy with the direction of their strategies? And even DEMA is still only a portion of the larger comprehensive conversation. My point is that a lot of people will agree that the scuba industry as a whole could be doing things better. How exactly? Well, viewpoints on that answer will vary widely. But personally, I would advocate for a liberalizing of the industry and let the free market sort out all the widely varying viewpoints. I think that forming closely knit cabals of manufacturers, agencies, and retailers does not help the scuba industry. And we know retailers, instructors, and divers are not getting the most succulent pieces of this pie, so why do we dance to the tune set out by the cabal?

 

[The Chairman]

But personally, I would advocate for a liberalizing of the industry and let the free market sort out all the widely varying viewpoints.

We're going to have to agree to agree on that. I fully agree.

 

[DCBC]

You can bend it anyway you want, but BEFORE ScubaBoard was a "profit center" and BEFORE I was the owner, I abode by that philosophy. I also mostly teach for free. In fact, I can't remember the last time I charged for it. It's still a matter of honor for me.

As for my staff and I discussing you: Only when someone reports your shenanigans. We talk about all problematic posts and posters. If you would stop being so intent on pushing your POV, we would have less to do.

Pete, this is a typical response from you; you totally evade all of the questions and make a statement completely unrelated to the conversation at-hand. That is indeed unfortunate and is the real source of any conflict that we may have.

Hopefully someday, you will come to realize people's honest concerns and stop throwing stones and coining what you believe to be witty abbreviations that mean something to you, but to few others outside of your clique. If you really want to have an intelligent conversation, you have to stop using such personal shorthand and discuss the real issues.

In many ways you are a bully. If we talked in person that would quickly stop. You hide behind your position here on the Board and say what you want with impunity. One day I hope you understand that you are dealing with real people, with real experience. That doesn't mean that they have a corner on the truth, but truth is relative. The truth of my statements is my truth; it is no less important than your perception of it.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have no idea why PADI does not participate officially here, but I can take a guess based on my experiences elsewhere.

Years ago I was a teacher member of a task force consisting of teachers, administrators, parents, and non-parent community members. Our job was to research theory on incentive pay systems and make recommendations for a new pay system for teachers. When we first met, each person pretty much had a set idea of what should be done, and those ideas, as you might guess, were sometimes poles apart. We all agreed, though, to set all those preconceived notions apart for the first phase of our work and do nothing but research. For a number of months we did nothing but read books and journal articles and discuss their implications.

At the end of that phase, we found we were very largely in agreement with the implications of that research, much of which totally contradicted some preconceived notions. We had a sense of a direction to move to next. We all agreed that the research was extremely strong in opposition to the most popular ideas floating around in public minds, but it included some intriguing concepts for new ideas about which almost none of the general public was aware. We had to give a public progress report, so we made a consensus list of points we would make to the public. The committee selected me to present that consensus list of points.

The presentation went very well. The rest of our group was available for the question period, and our consensus was clear. The newspapers even got it right.

The next day, however, our local right wing radio talk show host spent the entire show skewering me personally. His totally inaccurate description indicated that I was a moronic great Satan who somehow had the power to single-handedly thwart the will of the entire remainder of the committee. During his three hour rant, the school board president called me up to congratulate me this great badge of honor: being verbally disemboweled by this jerk.

Why, I asked, was there no official response to this?

I learned that their policy was never to participate on that show, or any show like it.

When I later took administration courses, we had a public relations expert talk to our class, and he emphasized the same thing. When you have an atmosphere as toxic as that, you do all you can to stay out of it. Your participation will never do any good. Your every accurate and logical explanation will be twisted and distorted and will serve only to provide another chance for them to take a shot at you. Let them rant and rave to the empty air until they have run out of steam and moved along to the next topic.

That is why I try to stay out of these flame wars until I can't stand it any longer or am pushed into them at the urging of others. I have no idea if that is PADI's stance, but it is a policy I would advise them to take were they to ask me.

 

[OldNSalty]

I'm not a mod so I probably lack wisdom in these matters but could this be moved to the instructor forum? It is ironic how far we've come from the original post-almost as if we are answering the OP by example. All I know is that now I am aware of a heated and on-going issue between some posters whom I tend to respect and before I wasn't. It's kinda like watching the parents argue-not really but a little disturbing.

 

[Diver0001]

Hopefully someday, you will come to realize people's honest concerns and stop throwing stones ...etc....

Honest concerns and meaningful discourse are never a problem. The problems start when two things happen:

1) when exchanging stand points begins to substitute meaningful discourse. (in other words, all talking and no listening).

and

2) when one or both parties are not willing to reconsider any aspect of their point of view regardless of evidence, sometimes very convincing evidence, that what they're saying is not accurate.

(and maybe #3): When the message becomes, "I am right and you are wrong and that's all there is to say."

In other words, absolutely no progress can ever be made about some issues because people have simply decided that they are right and everyone else is wrong, no matter what is said.

In that case, saying anything at all is completely pointless, isn't it?

For better or for worse, Pete coined a term for people who do this. But him giving it a name doesn't change what's happening. It just gives it a name. That's all.

R..