Dunderberg Death

[cerich]

Not intentionally, no. But, a neck bent a little forward or to the side will block the airway and restrict the air passage.

nope, if that were true people would be dying in their sleep by the millions everynight.

In fact the holding the head back with neck extended routine is really only better at helping flood the victims lungs with water.

Don't bring a convulsing diver (oxtox or whatever) up because they can be involunatrilly holding their breath, wait for them to stop (good stop or bad stop) then bring them up. I recommend being less concerned with form than control and speed of assent. That said in class forum is a great thing to strive for and mark against.

 

[Notso_Ken]

nope, if that were true people would be dying in their sleep by the millions everynight.

In fact the holding the head back with neck extended routine is really only better at helping flood the victims lungs with water.

Don't bring a convulsing diver (oxtox or whatever) up because they can be involunatrilly holding their breath, wait for them to stop (good stop or bad stop) then bring them up. I recommend being less concerned with form than control and speed of assent. That said in class forum is a great thing to strive for and mark against.

:furious::furious::furious:

Having had my mother die that exact way, I RESENT your unfounded statements!

It can and does happen.

Also, if you go back to the original post, you are talking a different scenario than what was described. The diver was not an unknown body stumbled across. It was the divers buddy. The diver was unresponsive. It does NOT say he was not breathing, so we do not know, and you are speculating that it is the case. An unresponsive diver can be breathing. It does NOT say he was convulsing.

All we know is a diver ROCKETED an unresponsive diver to the surface from 140-150 feet. All else is speculation. If my dive buddy was "just" unresponsive, I am going to do my best to bring them safely to the surface. Again, we don't know what deco obligation there was. I've seen speculation in here about that, too. But, we do NOT know.

Ken

 

[StreetDoctor]

sorry you are incorrect. An unconscious diver will not block gas from escaping on assent.

I disagree.

 

[StreetDoctor]

nope, if that were true people would be dying in their sleep by the millions everynight.

In fact the holding the head back with neck extended routine is really only better at helping flood the victims lungs with water.

Don't bring a convulsing diver (oxtox or whatever) up because they can be involunatrilly holding their breath, wait for them to stop (good stop or bad stop) then bring them up. I recommend being less concerned with form than control and speed of assent. That said in class forum is a great thing to strive for and mark against.

I believe you are speaking over your head. What type of medical training do you have? What are you basing your claims on? Have you ever taken a CPR class? Have you ever heard of the head tilt/chin lift, or modified jaw thrust? Just wondering.... I earn my money as a firefighter/paramedic and have seen first hand that it is completely possible for an unresponsive person to have their airway closed, whether above or below water doesn't matter. Please stop speaking about thinks you don't know, there are new divers reading this thread that might be impressionable.

 

[cerich]

I disagree.

and exactly how will that happen please?

 

[cerich]

I believe you are speaking over your head. What type of medical training do you have? What are you basing your claims on? Have you ever taken a CPR class? Have you ever heard of the head tilt/chin lift, or modified jaw thrust? Just wondering.... I earn my money as a firefighter/paramedic and have seen first hand that it is completely possible for an unresponsive person to have their airway closed, whether above or below water doesn't matter. Please stop speaking about thinks you don't know, there are new divers reading this thread that might be impressionable.

actually I still have to disagree, in CPR/AR your goal is to get air in, on a assent the goal is to not prevent air from escaping. There are very few positions that will preclude air from escaping as it expands in a unconscious diver during the assent. Certainly the tongue will fall back creating a "one way valve" on dry land when prone on the back, but that won't prevent air from escaping.

And yes, in fact I am a CPR/First Aid Instructor.

 

[cerich]

:furious::furious::furious:

Having had my mother die that exact way, I RESENT your unfounded statements!

It can and does happen.

Also, if you go back to the original post, you are talking a different scenario than what was described. The diver was not an unknown body stumbled across. It was the divers buddy. The diver was unresponsive. It does NOT say he was not breathing, so we do not know, and you are speculating that it is the case. An unresponsive diver can be breathing. It does NOT say he was convulsing.

All we know is a diver ROCKETED an unresponsive diver to the surface from 140-150 feet. All else is speculation. If my dive buddy was "just" unresponsive, I am going to do my best to bring them safely to the surface. Again, we don't know what deco obligation there was. I've seen speculation in here about that, too. But, we do NOT know.

Ken

Hi Ken,

Didn't mean to offend, however the fact is that very few people die because their airway collapses during sleep to the extent of death. Sorry for your Mom.

To your second point, I agree circumstances are variable, read all my posts here and tell me if you really believe my protocol is unwise. I truly believe it gives the initial victim the best chance of survival. If the diver is unconscious and breathing with reg in certainly I wouldn't shoot him/her like a lift bag. They are coming with me after I shoot a emergency bag and I will hand off to my safety diver when they come meet me (as per protocol). Then provided the victim continues to breath on their own the safety diver will complete the stops for the victim, if the victim stops breathing then no more stops and a quick ride to the surface is in order.

 

[StreetDoctor]

actually I still have to disagree, in CPR/AR your goal is to get air in, on a assent the goal is to not prevent air from escaping. There are very few positions that will preclude air from escaping as it expands in a unconscious diver during the assent. Certainly the tongue will fall back creating a "one way valve" on dry land when prone on the back, but that won't prevent air from escaping.

And yes, in fact I am a CPR/First Aid Instructor.

In order to get air in the airway has to be open. I still don't agree, it's much too easy to take the diver up with you and support the neck/reg in mouth if properly trained, by holding the regulator in their mouth they are not going to take water in either. How many times have you done CPR in real life? With positive results? I don't mean to offend you I just don't believe your method is the best way to handle the situation.

 

[cerich]

In order to get air in the airway has to be open. I still don't agree, it's much too easy to take the diver up with you and support the neck/reg in mouth if properly trained, by holding the regulator in their mouth they are not going to take water in either. How many times have you done CPR in real life? With positive results? I don't mean to offend you I just don't believe your method is the best way to handle the situation.

I've done CPR twice in real life, poor results one time.

Fact , you can NOT do CPR in water, heart is stopped the ONLY way to do CPR is to get with support under them and air around them.

If a diver was found unconscious with a reg in their mouth, then of course I will bring them up with the reg in mouth, that is however VERY unlikely. If they are reg in mouth, unconscious and breathing (even more unlikely) then they go the whole way to the surface with the reg held in place and airway extended like in a training video.

Now that we have gamed the best possible scenario how about we discuss reality? Underwater unconscious normally means reg out and not breathing, heart not beating. That means brain dead or working on it. You know this. There is NOTHING, no amount of heroics or best intentions will change the fact that I have a DEAD diver to deal with. I am on a technical dive and the surface will injure me and my team or worse , the SURFACE IS NOT AN OPTION in technical diving for non injured divers witha deco obligation. I dive a team to increase safty, not to be in some weird "injury/death pact" where if a member gets hurt/killed the rest of us do our best to join them hurt/dead!

Your very first sentence in you reply that I quoted above shows me that you are missing the point. The goal at this time is NOT to get air in (and obviously in your work that is almost always your primary goal), it is to get the victim to a better place where "possibly" something can be done for them. Expanding air during the assent will escape, the unconscious not breathing diver can't stop that from happening ( a unconscious breathing convulsing diver could and will), thus a additional expansion injury is unlikely (notice the clever use of the word additional, that may be why they are in the state they are)

Now do the nice extend the airway face up assent with a unconscious diver not breathing without a reg in their face and you will facilitate flooding their lungs with more water than they "may" already have in there, which adds a whole new dimension of problems to deal with on the surface. Your answer here may be "put the reg in!" my answer is why? They aren't breathing and sending them up without the reg isn't going to do them any more harm and possibly lots of good because on the surface my support team can actually do something!

You don't believe that my method is the best way to manage the situation, I believe you don't really understand the situation or the physics and physiology involved. Think it thru.

 

[Randy43068]

I don't see the point, airway open, airway closed... this is underwater and the outcome for an unresponsive diver isn't good in the best case.

At 140' I'm assuming this is a deco-tech dive. If the unresponsive diver is my friend/buddy I may blow off deco to get him up, it would depend on what phase the dive was in when it happened. I may not be clear thinking and blow right through deco to get him to the surface if it's something that happened to my dive buddy/friend while I was with him. If I happen upon an unresponsive diver during my swim at 140' I'm sending him up as I can do no more harm, he's already dead.

This is a technical dive with a virtual overhead. Just swimming the vic up may not be the correct thing to do.

All of my training says the airway for sake of embolism will remain open in an unresponsive diver. I'll trust that training.