What to do when an instructor is out of line?

[fjpatrum]

Your prerogative of course. Though I'm not clear what "multiple degrees" has to do with it, unless perhaps they're incredibly relevant.

Nonetheless, this language used in common speech is usually used to intimidate and is reprehensible on that ground alone. It is designed to raise tempers all round, and is often the precursor to physical violence.

I've never heard of George Carlin, though I see he was an American stand-up comedian/actor. Not sure what that adds to his credentials here. I might cite Billy Connolly, another stand-up comedian/actor, who in his stage acts is extremely coarse and profane but puts it on deliberately. His use of foul language is deliberate and painstaking and actually becomes funny, but equally doesn't validate that sort of language.

My point about multiple degrees and multiple languages is that I am educated. (You implied educated people won't speak that way or that somehow those who do aren't articulate.) I'll still cuss in every language I know when I feel "expressive" enough to do so. My point was that expletives are just words. They aren't any more "vulgar" than any other word unless you choose to accept them that way or they are used in a way as to deliberately hurt someone. I know plenty of articulate and educated people who use such language all the time.

As for intimidation and violence, I never see either of those. Most people I see using the F-bomb, as we often call it here, use it simply as an adjective. No more, no less. Sure, calling someone a f**king idiot is intimidating, but people don't actually do that very often when the other person can hear them. Here, the F-word is used more like "bloody" is in the UK. It's not particularly rude but it's not especially polite either.

 

[Kern]

I quite liked Lenny Bruce, even if he was a silly bugger.

 

[narced_1]

Just my .02....I have found my self on the instructor side of this equation...

I was on a Deep dive with all AOW students, (4) 2 were doing a "wreck dive" and 2 were doing a "Deep" dive. (the 2 on the wreck had previously done a "deep" dive with me)

1 of my students had gotten to about 50 feet and could no longer equalize, he went back up a few feet and tried...he tried and tried...but could not make it happen, while the rest of us were at about 85 feet waiting....buddy seperation...yeap instructor concerns (spoken, I AM FREAKIN OUT MAN!!)...so after a couple of minutes the instructor aborted the dive for the entire group (as was briefed) got to the surface and the one who had the issue was back on the boat.

Guess what, this situation was made to be a learning experience for EVERYONE in the class, buddy contact, communication. sure the dive got cut short, but in the end no one was hurt and a "lesson" was learned by all the students. the instructor didn't cus out the student (which would have been dumb and against padi standards of "Being Professional at all times")...rather that one event was made to be a learning point to help make the ENTIRE class a better group of divers,

The long and short of it is that the instructor acted rash and should have used that to help the class learn things like the effects of N2 Narcosis (yes, even at 75 ft)...the lack of communication, the lack of buddy contact (in 6 ft of viz, it is not uncommon for divers to hold other divers BC's). basically, there was a lot that should have been gleaned from this situation that the instructor did not capitalize on and could have. now instead of using this as a learning experience the instructor may have lost a student and get some PADI QA action.....all not good.

the instructor may have been freakin out about a "Lost Diver" ( i know i did) but in reality it wasn't your fault...it was, but under the direction of an instructor.

I say Contact PADI...find a new instructor, you will NEVER reach the pinnacle of your own personal diving while getting told how stupid you are you effin idiot!!



Dive safe, plan dives, dive plans.

Narced_1

 

[sablefish]

If your instructor is out of line, hand him your backup reel. Line management is a team responsibility.

 

[Hammerhead]

So you are saying that the population of NYC is inadequately articulate? and un educated?

<NYC resident> The Yankees lost last night.
<his buddy> F you, really?
<resident> F'n A they did.
<resident> you going to the Harvard reunion next month.
<buddy> F, is that next month?


very expressive and articulate, you just have to speak the language properly, like Ebonics.

Try this for articulate.

From a late, much lamented, friend of mine on the occasion of his car breaking down for the final time, standing over the engine, main gasket obviously gone, he came up with this gem: -

"F---ing f---! f---ing f---er's f---ing f---ed, F---!!!!!

work it out for yourselves, and then try and do that with any other word.



Edit,I must admit that he did not have multiple degrees, but he was utterly fluent in Profanity.

 

[stakanak]

Oh dear lord. I've read this whole thread, and there's been some drama-whoring, prompting me to post.

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

name removed at OP's request

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With about 30 pages of professed butt-hurt and a good deal of grand-standing over having an f-bomb dropped after a dive, might as well name its name.

Personally, I'm not their biggest fan, which stems from the fact that I paid a "drive out" cost of about $1200.00 to get my husband and myself certified as OW. I got stuck with a $150.00 FedEx bill on some gear for the OW cert. When I came back for AOW cert for myself, I was then handed a list of about $1200.00 of stuff that I "had" to buy as a requirement for the AOW class, and when handed the list, the fool behind the counter, literally, walked out of the shop without explanation. Yea...that was weird. Supposedly, he's just an anomolous weird dude. But it was enough for me to buy my gear elsewhere, complete the AOW cert I'd paid for, and find another shop.

I'm high maintenance like that.

Anyway, with that said, sounds like he actually did hotpuppy right: they inquired of the situation, gave him a refund. They didn't hang the instructor in effigy, but I doubt that was called for. In this regard:

The instructor at issue was my OW instructor and my AOW instructor. He's awesome. Period. He's incredibly qualified, knowledgable, and patient, and he ALWAYS puts safety first. Conservatively so.

While it is possible that Instructor somehow lost his mind and went off like a hair-trigger a$$hole at hotpuppy, or was just out of line, I call BS.

For one thing, Hotpuppy's been too blatantly calling for his head, shopping for sympathy on this thread, and hiding some prima donna drama llama-ing behind a "noble high road." For another, I do know Instructor and have made a decent number of dives with him as an Instructor.

My own AOW cert was one of those experiences in Lake Travis that ended up so bad, it was actually comedy gold:

Instructor and I did the AOW cert early last fall in preparation for going to dive the TX Clipper together. The lake was down about 40' and the weekend of our cert, it rained like the great Biblical Flood, turning Windy Point into a mud-filled, mucked up vat of no-vis goodness.

Instructor had 2 students: me, brand newbie, back from Hawaii, with like 15 dives or so, and a dude who had like 200 dives since he was an adrenaline junkie who had been diving using his brother's C-card to dive since he was 15. Dude was heading off that week, with his brother, to go great white shark diving in Australia and needed his own AOW card finally.

For an instructor, that's probably not the ideal match up of students. And to add to the mix, I'm also a Type I, insulin dependent, juvenile diabetic and have been for 25 years - since I was 9 years old. Climbing up and down the rocky cliffs of Lake Travis (and they were rocky with the lake being so far down) didn't exactly add to the peace and enjoyment of the experience and stuff like that does pose a risk for those of us having to worry about keeping our sugar levels up enough. I'm also a "type A" personality and don't like to go in the water with a$$clowns and don't have much reserve in saying so

So, we were under pressure to "get the cert done" and also dealing with some pretty stressful conditions.

Instructor isn't the type to put divers in the water without a decent plan. Nor is he the type to deconstruct in a SNAFU. In this case, for example, I got stuck on the deep dive in one of those idiotic pecan grove trees in Lake Travis. I think we were at like 55 feet when it happened. The lake was so far down, that the bottom was maybe 80 feet. I lost a fin when that tree viciously assaulted me blind. Good times.

Instructor, however, was diligently watching both of us- despite the no-vis, and signalled me if I wanted to thumb the dive. But with the miserable conditions... no, I wasn't repeating it, we were getting this bitch done. So, we went slowly down to 75 feet, on the line, did the combo lock skill, and came back up. He went down ahead of us, but he was a good and competent Instructor.

During another dive, the night dive, adrenaline dude somehow lost his mask, cleaning it, right before we went down. The "wreck dive" was probably the best, trying to do that in the dark, with adrenaline dude's size 15 fins on me, but we were only at about 12 feet, so... hey

I've rambled on, but the point is this: I have made about 20 dives with Instructor and he's qualified, competent, incredibly attune to his students and safety. He isn't prone to lose his cool or mercilessly descend upon someone with a torrent of four-letter words.

If angry words ensued after a dive and someone even dropped an f-bomb, get over it. Get a refund. But going to PADI on this or desiring some apology written in blood or sympathy from Scubaboard sounds like hotpuppy is being a bit of a prima donna drama llama.

Yo Diva,
How can you possibly know a person as well as you state from a few classes and 20 or so dives? The fact is anyone can go off at anytime and this person picked a really poor time to do it.
As a matter of fact, some of the coolest and calmest people I know (and I mean really know-like 20 plus YEARS!) come unglued in high stress situations.
I mean, the shop even acknowledged the situation!

 

[vkalia]

In 10 years of teaching, only *once* have I blown up and ripped a student a new one.

If the student were on Scubaboard, he could probably describe his version of the story as follows:
"I was on OW3, we were going down a line on really poor visibility, the instructor turned to signal to another student just when I let go of the line, I couldnt find the line so I swam around trying to find the others. I made one mistake and forgot to surface immediately, but when I came up, the instructor berated me with a profanity-laced tirade. Ok, so I made a mistake but the instructor's reaction was wholly inappropriate for that mistake"

The above would have been 100% accurate. Trust me, it was one hell of a tirade. I have never been so furious at a student before.

However, it would have omitted a few other facts, such as how long the student swam alone, what I had covered with him on the briefing and what other things he had done the previous day, which had resulted in me asking him to sit out one dive.

In other words, very interesting thread for entertainment value, and that's about it.

V.

PS: Funnily enough, that student came back to do his Advanced and later his Rescue/DM with us. He was a model diver afterwards.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

From an instructor's perspective, it's always frustrating when you tell a student something and you think you've described your expectations very clearly. They listen intently, shake their heads in the affirmative, then swim off and do something completely different than what you said.

But it happens. Instructors are only human ... they get flustered sometimes, especially when they see a student put themselves at risk doing something completely out of the realm of what you told them to do.

But we need to remember that they don't know what we know ... sometimes we say things from the perspective of what we know, and it means something completely different to the student. Sometimes they get so focused on something else ... something simple or basic that we'd take for granted ... that they just forget to remember what they were told.

It's rarely in the student's best interest to sugar-coat mistakes, or gloss them over. And it's sometimes a narrow line between being firm and going overboard. I've caught myself at times on the edge of berating someone for what seemed to me ignoring instructions I felt were clearly given. And I have to stop and reset ... usually with the question "What were you thinking?"

It's a better way to approach those situations ... because it removes assumptions of intent ... and it reinforces to the student that "thinking" is exactly what we expect them to be doing.

My students know, going in to the class, that I'm not going to sugar-coat their mistakes ... but finding constructive ways of telling them that they didn't meet your expectations is always a better approach.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[vkalia]

finding constructive ways of telling them that they didn't meet your expectations is always a better approach.

While I agree with this in general, "always" is too absolute. Different people react differently - the trick to being a good instructor or trainer is anything is figuring out how to get to a specific person, not following a particular formula.

 

[MikeSK]

isnt the instructor supposed to be behind/beside the students? Doesn't really do a whole heckuva lotta good to have him in front if there's a problem. Especially in low vis.