General Vortex Incident Discussion

[ScubaSteve]

Good luck on recovering the ROV and camera guys.

Edit

Were cadaver dogs not already through there sniffing the water? I thought this had been done and nothing was found? Is this the first time they have been through? If they found nothing last time, I am surprised that this time something would be found because of the high flow coming from the cave. How far will the scent of decomp carry in water? Where does the Vortex spring system feed from? Is it possible that the feed water from somewhere else had something decomposing?

 

[lurk-n-learn]

:footinmouth:
Looks like this may be a 2000 post thread soon....

 

[diverdoug1]

I wonder if anyone knows what the smallest diameter tank Mr. Mcdaniel had been diving with. And what would be the largest tank diameter that could be shoved through the restriction in question. Even if he used a pony tank, is the restriction wide enough to accomodate a persons head?

 

[cdolphin]

:footinmouth:
Looks like this may be a 2000 post thread soon....

My thoughts exactly. Argh. I was hoping this would slowly fade away.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Good luck on recovering the ROV and camera guys.

Edit

Were cadaver dogs not already through there sniffing the water? I thought this had been done and nothing was found? Is this the first time they have been through? If they found nothing last time, I am surprised that this time something would be found because of the high flow coming from the cave. How far will the scent of decomp carry in water? Where does the Vortex spring system feed from? Is it possible that the feed water from somewhere else had something decomposing?

No. First time dogs used were not trained for water. Apparently these are. Edd and I have dibbs on recovering camera and have set price for retunr of camera .

 

[diverdoug1]

Good luck on recovering the ROV and camera guys.

Edit

Were cadaver dogs not already through there sniffing the water? I thought this had been done and nothing was found? Is this the first time they have been through? If they found nothing last time, I am surprised that this time something would be found because of the high flow coming from the cave. How far will the scent of decomp carry in water? Where does the Vortex spring system feed from? Is it possible that the feed water from somewhere else had something decomposing?

It was reported that some of the dogs flagged the first time. Putrescine and cadaverine can be detected after miles of travel in flowing water ( as evidenced by detection of a victim 2 miles downstream in a water filled storm drain, during the Katrina recovery effort). These markers of decomposition travel well in an aqueous environment because they are frequently evolved off the cadaver emulsified in fat droplets seen in highest concentration during skin autolysis and subsequent slippage of the epidermal layers BUT as each potential space in the cadaver fills will gas and then ruptures, it produces peaks of scent production (skin bullae, followed by the peritoneal cavity, subcutaneous gas pockets, then intramuscular gas pockets, finaly ending with gas walled off in pockets of adipocere formation secondary to saponification. Adipocere formation begins within a month of death, and in the absence of air it can persist for centuries). Many factors come in to play in how far the scent can carry (containment of water flow/ water temperature/rate of flow/degree of decomposition). In this situation, all factors are optimal for long distance of detection. The high flow would aid detection. Effluent of decomposition byproducts would not be beyond their peak at this point in time in 72 degree water.

 

[lurk-n-learn]

Too bad the dogs can't dive and take the camera in there....
1st chimp in space was "Ham"
Headlines will be Sam the dog went where it was previously thought that no man had gone before and lo and behold there was the body of Ben who blazed a trail of no return.
looks like he may have accomplished what he was in there for and that was to go farther than anyone. Too bad he didn't get out alive but no one would have believed he made it that far anyway....

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

It was reported that some of the dogs flagged the first time. Putrescine and cadaverine can be detected after miles of travel in flowing water ( as evidenced by detection of a victim 2 miles downstream in a water filled storm drain, during the Katrina recovery effort). These markers of decomposition travel well in an aqueous environment because they are frequently evolved off the cadaver emulsified in fat droplets seen in highest concentration during skin autolysis and subsequent slippage of the epidermal layers BUT as each potential space in the cadaver fills will gas and then ruptures, it produces peaks of scent production (skin bullae, followed by the peritoneal cavity, subcutaneous gas pockets, then intramuscular gas pockets, finaly ending with gas walled off in pockets of adipocere formation secondary to saponification). Many factors come in to play in how far the scent can carry (containment of water flow/ water temperature/rate of flow/degree of decomposition). In this situation, all factors are optimal for long distance of detection. The high flow would aid detection. Effluent of decomposition byproducts would not be beyond their peak at this point in time in 72 degree water.

Doug, you know a lot of disgusting information. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Too bad the dogs can't dive and take the camera in there....
1st chimp in space was "Ham"
Headlines will be Sam the dog went where it was previously thought that no man had gone before and lo and behold there was the body of Ben who blazed a trail of no return.
looks like he may have accomplished what he was in there for and that was to go farther than anyone. Too bad he didn't get out alive but no one would have believed he made it that far anyway....

You left out the part where he turns into Mr.Lippett to go through a space 4 inches tall

 

[diverdoug1]

Doug, you know a lot of disgusting information. Thanks for sharing.

Combination of medical school, diving medicine, and public safety diving leave an impression. Hope I was not too graphic.