General Vortex Incident Discussion

[mike_s]

But they don't have to facilitate.

And regardless if he was "warned about cave diving", there is some highly suspect stuff going on in that picture I linked to, above. Makes me wonder about the quality of instruction and why people are protecting the identity of the instructor. If he did nothing wrong, what's to hide?

If he wants to identify himself, then he can choose.

As far as I know he did nothing wrong. But no sense making himself a target for something he didn't do.

Also, family members and friends that have no clue about diving, cave diving, etc. don't need to be pestering him for teaching a class that wasn't cave diving.



I've personally seen Open water divers go into the cave at Vortex after they were warned by instructors not to. They did it anyway. you can't fix stupid.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Orly? I guess you didn't see this pic: Photo: Ben McDaniel pursued his spirit of exploration into a dangerous underwater cave in Florida in August. He didn't return, and his family hopes to find someone who can retrieve his body from the cave. - Memphis, TN | The Commercial Appeal

Check out the valve of the left tank and tell me whats wrong with that.

Seen it. He didn't train with those tanks. He's obviously rigged them to work with his old yoke valves. Doesn't change anything. Ben obviously didn't stick to his training limits, we already knew he made poor gear decisions when diving above those limits as well(as in broken valves on probably deco cylinders, yoke valves, no regs, etc).

Diving beyond his limits has nothing to do with an OW course he took.



Why do you keep asking who his OW SM instructor is when you know who it is?

 

[PfcAJ]

And Vortex facilitates it. Thanks for helping me make my point. I award you 2 internets.

Facilitation of something (like giving alcohol to minors, the keys to a 14 year old, partial cave skills (sidemount), entrance to a cave when not cave trained {vortex and ginnie are both guilty}, etc) is a real issue around these parts. Everyone wants to turn a blind eye, and yet the nonsense fatalities continue. God forbid we call people out for this stuff.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Sidemount is no longer a cave specific configuration. Same as BCs, power inflators, redundant secondary regulators and the like aren't cave specific gear/configurations anymore either. Thats where you're going all wrong.

Vortex had no control over what this guy did, he didn't enter from Vortex property. You're wrong again.

What is Vortex and Ginnie supposed to do to keep people out anyway? Grate the caves? LOL OH WAIT!?!

Everyone wants to turn a blind eye, and yet the nonsense fatalities continue. God forbid we call people out for this stuff.

I think its refreshing that finally its pretty well accepted that this dude screwed up, big time, without the majority of people pointing fingers elsewhere. Personal responsibility is a hellova thing, I'm glad its not completely lost.

 

[ucfdiver]

Sidemount is no longer a cave specific configuration.

I don't remember voting on that, Matt.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

And Vortex facilitates it. Thanks for helping me make my point. I award you 2 internets.

Facilitation of something (like giving alcohol to minors, the keys to a 14 year old, partial cave skills (sidemount), entrance to a cave when not cave trained {vortex and ginnie are both guilty}, etc) is a real issue around these parts. Everyone wants to turn a blind eye, and yet the nonsense fatalities continue. God forbid we call people out for this stuff.

Why is it your job to "call people out" for something someone else did?

You are very opinionated ... in some cases about things (like OW sidemount) that you know nothing about.

In this case, you seem to be bent on some kind of vendetta against a particular instructor.

I suggest you take it up with that instructor off-line ... once a class is done, the instructor is not responsible for the poor decisions of the diver.

I'd be willing to bet that the instructor you seem so determined to "call out" didn't teach Ben to dive tight cave passages using tanks with yoke regs and adapters ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Hetland]

partial cave skills (sidemount)

I don't remember voting on that, Matt.

Sidemount is no longer a cave specific configuration.

Yes, let's go over this again.

PfcAJ and ucfdiver think only fully certified cave divers with X number of completed Eagle's Nest penetrations should have access to sidemount gear and training. This has been repeated over and over and over, in multiple threads.

 

[LiteHedded]

Yes, let's go over this again.

PfcAJ and ucfdiver think only fully certified cave divers with X number of completed Eagle's Nest penetrations should have access to sidemount gear and training. This has been repeated over and over and over, in multiple threads.

[Citation Needed]

 

[PfcAJ]

Clearly something was amiss in the training. Did you watch the videos? Did he even "pass" his SM class? What defines passing?

I wonder when Ben got those shiny mk25s... Before or after the class. I sure would like to ask the instructor. Maybe he could comment on how Ben did in class, or his attitude, or what was really said or taught, or what gear he used.

Not one person has come up with a reason of why he signed up for the class other than "because he wanted to". That clears it up... My question is "why". Why did he need two tanks? Why SM? The instructor might be able to fill us in, here.

Just in case you haven't noticed, there is a lot of questionable stuff going on in north Florida. It hasn't exactly been light on fatalities in recent years. Perhaps we need to unroll the blueprints and see where the flaw is.

 

[ucfdiver]

PfcAJ and ucfdiver think only fully certified cave divers with X number of completed Eagle's Nest penetrations should have access to sidemount gear and training. This has been repeated over and over and over, in multiple threads.

Quote me once where I've said that. If you can, I'll buy you dinner next time you're in cave country.