General Vortex Incident Discussion

[alohagal]

Seen it. He didn't train with those tanks. He's obviously rigged them to work with his old yoke valves. Doesn't change anything. Ben obviously didn't stick to his training limits, we already knew he made poor gear decisions when diving above those limits as well(as in broken valves on probably deco cylinders, yoke valves, no regs, etc).

Diving beyond his limits has nothing to do with an OW course he took.



Why do you keep asking who his OW SM instructor is when you know who it is?

Okay...so since everyone is in absolute, no doubt about it, agreement that Ben went beyond his training...are we now agreeing that he is in the cave?

 

[ScubaSteve]

I think we have settled on blaming Gabe Watson when he gets back.

 

[Qnape]

I hate to break the news to you, but it's gone main stream. SM is no longer an exclusive configuration for Florida cave divers. Link from todays SDI/TDI News letter.

International Training :: Associate Member eNews :: Sidemount? it?s not just for cave divers any more :: English

It's gone more mainstream than SDI/TDI - Alert Diver Summer 2010 issue includes a four page article entitled "Sidemount - Not just for cave divers anymore". Of course by its nature Alert Diver is received by every vacation diver (including me) maintaining DAN dive insurance. Am I to believe that every vacation diver exposed to the concept will now rush into a cave?

As others have said, example is far more persuasive. My daughter and I decided that we wanted to dive in the cenotes as we vacation in Mexico regularly; I told her I would love to, but only after competing cavern certification. We paid dearly in vacation time to gain the skills over three long days so that we could safely enjoy it next time. While going through line drills on land and in the water, we were passed by group after group of OW divers entering the cavern with a guide (who I assume is full cave certified). Many of the same questions I have read throughout this thread went through my mind - what happens if 2 or more of the OW divers have a problem while deep in the cavern?

My daughter, on the other hand, immediately asked a far scarier question. Why were we wasting our vacation time doing drills, following line around tie-offs with no mask (in OW), penetrating into the cavern only to drill all the way out sharing air, lights off, and eyes closed unable to enjoy the cavern we want to see, while so many were just jumping in with no preparation? It was difficult for me to deal with her natural teenaged impatience and convince her that ours was the better route; that we would gain from our work and be repaid with a better appreciation and greater enjoyment of the cavern dives we would do at some unknown point in the future. Better safety as well of course, but a hard sell to a 16 year old.

We completed our course (although our NACD certs have not gone through...... but that's another story) and are planning to return to the caverns next year. And we have learned more fully just why the training is so important.

If my daughter is ever so foolish as to exceed her training into the cave zone it will not be with me as a buddy, and will not be because of the overhead training we have received so far. It will be because someone else sets a bad example, and leads her down a potentially deadly path by making the shortcut seem OK. I would never want her to see OW divers entering a "safe" cave like the tunnel down to the piano room at Vortex; at least not until she is a bit more mature - but that did not mean I did not think she should learn beginner overhead skills in cavern. Her skills will not lead her beyond into the cave zone, but the wrong diver could, I fear. I also trust that at some point she will learn to resist such temptations (but as a parent will always worry, of course).

I drive a 437hp Camaro SS - and have not gotten a ticket in 8 years. If we learn SM, we will not use it as an excuse to explore the first underwater crack we see. And if we ever decide to continue to cave, it will be after learning doubles in open water first, if not SM.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Hmmm... let's see here... I want to carry more than one tank 'cause I want the extra gas on an open water dive... I can buy bands, a manifold, and build a set of doubles that weigh twice as much as one tank and are a major pain in the tail to handle and store on my boat, or... I can take a couple of tanks I already have that are easier to handle 'cause I can handle 'em one at a time and sling 'em as sidemount...
Seems like a no-brainer to me!
That said, I personally prefer backmount on upright wrecks 'cause it's easier to negotiate doors and passageways... but sidemount definitely has many advantages, especially in the logistics arena. (One on the back and one - or even two - slung ain't bad, either.)
Rick

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Yabbut Rick ... if you're only doing an open water dive, you don't NEED that extra gas. Only cave divers need more than one tank. Haven't you been paying attention?

And Blue Sparkle ... that was a nicely thought out post. But just to keep things in perspective, it isn't the irresponsible sidemount user who's proposing that your choice to dive sidemount should be restricted to cave diving only ... it's someone who doesn't even dive sidemount ...



... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[PfcAJ]

If this holds true, we should also stop teaching teen age children to drive. How many have to die each year before some one realizes that more than likely some will exceed their level of training. This whole thread boils down to one thing. Certain individuals will exceed their ability in any number of activities that will cause harm to themselves or others, no matter what their level of training. Its human nature. There is no way that any regulations or limits will prevent this from happening!

Take a field trip to Singapore. The standards for a driver's licence over there are dramatically different than they are for obtaining a license in the US. As a result, there are less fatal accidents both per capita and per 10,000 registered vehicles (which corrects for the difference in how many people own vehicles). (sources:FARS Encyclopedia and Singapore Traffic Police - Driving in Singapore).

Up the level of training, reduce the number of fatalities.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Take a field trip to Singapore. The standards for a driver's licence over there are dramatically different than they are for obtaining a license in the US. As a result, there are less fatal accidents both per capita and per 10,000 registered vehicles (which corrects for the difference in how many people own vehicles). (sources:FARS Encyclopedia and Singapore Traffic Police - Driving in Singapore).

Up the level of training, reduce the number of fatalities.

I think that has less to do with driver training than it does the fact that in Singapore, people who misbehave can legally get their ass kicked. Singaporan culture breeds responsibility into its citizens from day one. In America it's the opposite ... we're trying hard to breed personal responsibility out of our culture.

Taking statistics out of context is a great way to make a point ... but it seldom really proves anything ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ucfdiver]

And Blue Sparkle ... that was a nicely thought out post. But just to keep things in perspective, it isn't the irresponsible sidemount user who's proposing that your choice to dive sidemount should be restricted to cave diving only ... it's someone who doesn't even dive sidemount ...

Are you referring to me?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Are you referring to me?

... I'm referring to the person who keeps insisting that side-mount is for cave diving only ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[PfcAJ]

Bob, I suggest going to Singapore and seeing it for yourself. Thats what I did. And btw, if you break a traffic law over there, you get a ticket, just like you do here.

And James, he's referring to me. You got left out since you dive SM