Jacket BC or Wing BC

[Sas]

Sas,
If you read the minnow's posts to me, you will see clearly that he was being extremely abrasive ( at the very least). I did not attempt to be as nasty with my reply posting, but I did feel the need to at least give him a little needle back

Oh I am all for needling halemano as he deserves it but your post that I quoted carries collateral damage imho... to the people doing the dives you don't think much of.

 

[BoltSnap]

BP/W Folks,

On one hand you talk about your precious BP/W as if they are the simplest buoyancy device that ever existed and even a newbie in a beginner class can handle them better than JBCD's and on the other hand you talk about them as if one needs a Ph.D. to handle them. Which one is it? You can't have it both ways.

We are not talking about brain surgery or curing cancer or even rocket science here. halemanō or other divers are highly experienced divers and instructors and they have the "intuition" to make their opinions and judgments. No one is saying that BP/W are bad, we are saying that they are not superior as you seem to relentlessly insist they are and want to make sure that everyone agrees with you. Talk about cult mentality.

 

[danvolker]

Oh I am all for needling halemano as he deserves it but your post that I quoted carries collateral damage imho... to the people doing the dives you don't think much of.

I will admit that my needling could well have offended many divers I do not want to offend....except for the exclusively cruiseship type divers, which I will consider in a separate and defective class of divers

What I called baby diving should really be seen as gentle, relaxing and very colorful dives, often with spectacular invertebrate life. It would be shallow--25 to 60 feet, have essentially zero current ( easy anchor diving), and there is NOTHING wrong with diving like this on all of your dives.

I am afraid that the "H" has been doing so much of this though, that he is believing that this is ALL there is, that Hawaii is ALL there is....and he has lost touch with what it takes to optimize enjoyment of more challenging areas.

 

[danvolker]

BP/W Folks,

On one hand you talk about your precious BP/W as if they are the simplest buoyancy device that ever existed and even a newbie in a beginner class can handle them better than JBCD's and on the other hand you talk about them as if one needs a Ph.D. to handle them. Which one is it? You can't have it both ways.

We are not talking about brain surgery or curing cancer or even rocket science here. halemanō or other divers are highly experienced divers and instructors and they have the "intuition" to make their opinions and judgments. No one is saying that BP/W are bad, we are saying that they are not superior as you seem to relentlessly insist they are and want to make sure that everyone agrees with you. Talk about cult mentality.

A backplate and wing needs to be custom fitted to the individual, and you actually need to know how the hoses, etc, are supposed to be routed. With a typical vest, you try on a small, medium or large, and if one of these does not fit too badly, that is the one you will buy--it is not typically a perfect fit, but for most divers in the mass market, it is all they know, and without experiencing a custom fit, it is good enough for them.
Also, the vest style will have all the routing and setup handled with very standardized straps and there is no real knowledge required to gear up a new diver in one-- in other words, a dive shop can hire the kid from Publix to sell gear in the shop, after a 10 minute tour of the shop's gear, the kid knows what he needs to, in order to sell one of the vest BC's to most new dive shop customers.
This would NOT be true with a BP/wing--and if it did occur, the liklihood is that either the consumer would need to discover proper configuration , custom fitting and set up on the Internet, or they would end up quite upset and poorly configured.

However... Once the Bp/wing is properly custom fitted and hoses routed correctly, and the diver is correctly configured with this, the actual "diving" part is incredibly easy and effortless. Again, if the instructor was to teach new non-diving students, it would be necessary for him to have used bp/wing himself, and be familiar with the proper configurations, and the concepts of air share via long hose and necklace reg for the donating diver--this being the intended scenario for the bp/wing---cobble a short hose primary and traditional octopus to the bp/wing, you don't have optimal routing and strapping for this, and the system does not work as well....

If a shop does not like Bp/wings, and there instructors have never used them, even if they bought a bunch of Halcyon gear to sell, they would have a self fulfilling prophecy going on which would sabotage any potential for the bp/wing concept in the shop...

 

[BoltSnap]

Then the BP/W is NOT as simple as some folks here are trying to mislead us to believe. This doesn't make the BP/W good or bad nor does it make the JBCD better or worse. The Right tool for the right job.

 

[BoltSnap]

BTW, what about the issue with weight belt for the BP/W? How does it work???

 

[danvolker]

Then the BP/W is NOT as simple as some folks here are trying to mislead us to believe. This doesn't make the BP/W good or bad nor does it make the JBCD better or worse. The Right tool for the right job.

I would say it is more about the "right shop" or the "right instructor". Some are too close minded to see the best tool right in front of them, and would never allow themselves to use the tool properly.

I DO say the bp/wing is always the right tool.

 

[BoltSnap]

I would say it is more about the "right shop" or the "right instructor". Some are too close minded to see the best tool right in front of them, and would never allow themselves to use the tool properly.

I DO say the bp/wing is always the right tool.

There we go again, My religion is better/more correct than yours and I am going to heaven faster than you are. And, of course, I always know more/better than everyone else.

 

[danvolker]

BTW, what about the issue with weight belt for the BP/W? How does it work???

How does it work? ?????

In my case, with a dui 350 drysuit, I am about 18 pounds positive ( also includes my bouyant camera housing). 6 pound negative steel backplate, plus around 2 or 3 for the cannister light, and then I need either a steel 100 or an al 80 with 6 pund keel weight stapped to it....and then usually 5 pounds of lead on each side of my weight belt....for stills I sometimes need to get a little heavy on the bottom.

Weight belt goes on over dry suit before I get into my bp/wing harness.

wing is either 18 or 27 pound wing ( I use either). I can easily swim up from 130 feet with a complete drysuit flood and no air in wing., so no ditchable weight is desirable, though I could ditch the weighbelt and the keel weight if you invented some unlikely scenario where I would want to ditch weight. Underwater, I can get in or out of my bp/wing harness in a moment--with ease....AGAIN, not something divers need to do..just saying it is easy if desired.

Does this help?

 

[danvolker]

There we go again, My religion is better/more correct than yours and I am going to heaven faster than you are. And, of course, I always know more/better than everyone else.

Someone here might enjoy saying that this sounds like the "pot calling the kettle black".....