When thirds are not enough....

[MXGratefulDiver]

They were in Sm Rob. One of them was making his 3rd or 4th dive in SM.

Well right there's your problem.

That's definitely an issue, if not the issue.

What bothers me about the growth in side mount is that some back mount cave divers seem to think you can just put the gear on and go dive - in a cave no less. Personally I put in a lot of OW dives before I ever entered a cave and then I was very conservative in terms of the cave diving I did until I got comfortabel and proficient in the configuration. That takes time even, with a SM course.

Doesn't that amount to blaming equipment for a lack of reasonable judgment?

People who don't use good judgment in a cave are going to get themselves into those sorts of problems no matter what equipment they're using.

"Too much too soon" is a common problem in every style of diving ... it's more a function of personality than equipment choices ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Doesn't that amount to blaming equipment for a lack of reasonable judgment?

People who don't use good judgment in a cave are going to get themselves into those sorts of problems no matter what equipment they're using.

"Too much too soon" is a common problem in every style of diving ... it's more a function of personality than equipment choices ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I would say that not usuing reasonable judgement is the root cause, not the equipment. If I dove a ccr unit right now and died it would be all on me, not the ccr unit because I would not know what the hell im doing with it. They made very poor decisions and it come back to bite them, even tho they got a break that day. The next person might not get that lucky.

 

[ucfdiver]

Doesn't that amount to blaming equipment for a lack of reasonable judgment?

People who don't use good judgment in a cave are going to get themselves into those sorts of problems no matter what equipment they're using.

"Too much too soon" is a common problem in every style of diving ... it's more a function of personality than equipment choices ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

I can personally say that my first experience with ceiling peculation was a bit freaky for me, and I didn't expect it. I really don't think people realize what they're getting themselves into when it comes to silt outs. When you're trying hard to remain in trim and go "clean", it's not unheard of to have silt behind you, but due to keeping trim, not see it.

 

[rjack321]

Doesn't that amount to blaming equipment for a lack of reasonable judgment?

People who don't use good judgment in a cave are going to get themselves into those sorts of problems no matter what equipment they're using.

"Too much too soon" is a common problem in every style of diving ... it's more a function of personality than equipment choices ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Soooo many people are saying stuff about how great SM is... How you "can't" lose all your gas, how clean it is blah blah. Heck even PADI and DAN have jumped on the SM bandwagon. Nobody talks about the negatives and thus those divers who have a propensity towards "too much too soon" don't have or see many brake pedals.

Would they have gotten into the same trouble in BM? Possibly. Or the cave may have turned them around sooner. Too many variable to know for sure, but SM (and the scooters) gave them a certain amount of confidence which was misplaced.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob,

I can personally say that my first experience with ceiling peculation was a bit freaky for me, and I didn't expect it. I really don't think people realize what they're getting themselves into when it comes to silt outs. When you're trying hard to remain in trim and go "clean", it's not unheard of to have silt behind you, but due to keeping trim, not see it.

I know ... had that experience inside a ship once.

Still, you are supposed to be at least aware of these potential gotchya's before entering an overhead ... and common sense would dictate not piling on too many new things at once.

Some folks just seem to have more confidence in themselves than they should. More "traditional" gear choices aren't going to stop those folks from going places they're not ready for yet ... because they're determined to go there.

Seems to me that one of the requisite skills for diving in any kind of overhead environment is the ability to realistically assess whether or not the dive plan is a reasonable idea in the first place.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I know ... had that experience inside a ship once.

Still, you are supposed to be at least aware of these potential gotchya's before entering an overhead ... and common sense would dictate not piling on too many new things at once.

Some folks just seem to have more confidence in themselves than they should. More "traditional" gear choices aren't going to stop those folks from going places they're not ready for yet ... because they're determined to go there.

Seems to me that one of the requisite skills for diving in any kind of overhead environment is the ability to realistically assess whether or not the dive plan is a reasonable idea in the first place.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The last sentence is perfect. Making someone with a huge ego understand it is going to be impossible tho.

 

[Lobzilla]

Soooo many people are saying stuff about how great SM is... How you "can't" lose all your gas, how clean it is blah blah. Heck even PADI and DAN have jumped on the SM bandwagon. Nobody talks about the negatives and thus those divers who have a propensity towards "too much too soon" don't have or see many brake pedals.

Could you guys please start a new thread on the disadvantages of SM. I am not trolling here, just curious.

I would say that not using reasonable judgment is the root cause, not the equipment.

Agree. But the problem is: Good judgment comes from experience and true experience comes from bad judgment. In other word, you have to eff up so smartly that you get another chance to not eff up again. How do you do this? Well, if I would know, you would find me on the roster of Nobel laureates.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The last sentence is perfect. Making someone with a huge ego understand it is going to be impossible tho.

... that's why God created evolution ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Could you guys please start a new thread on the disadvantages of SM. I am not trolling here, just curious.



Agree. But the problem is: Good judgment comes from experience and true experience comes from bad judgment. In other word, you have to eff up so smartly that you get another chance to not eff up again. How do you do this? Well, if I would know, you would find me on the roster of Nobel laureates.

These guys have years of diving, if they dont have good judgement by now, they never will. Learning in caves is just like learning at 300ft, you can only absorb so much, you have to learn the rest while doing it. In my opinion, listening to that little voice on your shoulder will kepp most divers from really doing something stupid.

 

[Cave Diver]

Agree. But the problem is: Good judgment comes from experience and true experience comes from bad judgment. In other word, you have to eff up so smartly that you get another chance to not eff up again. How do you do this? Well, if I would know, you would find me on the roster of Nobel laureates.

Not necessarily. I went to CCR because we were getting to the point that some of our OC dives were getting longer and deeper and it was starting to get logistically prohibitive for us to bring all the gas we needed to safely do a dive.

When we switched to CCR I didn't suddenly think that I could magically go to the end of the line in a cave system on my next dive. In fact, I've been further in several caves on OC than I have on CCR. That's because I realize there is a learning curve and just because I have the equipment to get me somewhere doesn't mean I have the skill to get me out.

It doesn't take bad judgment to gain experience. Sometimes good ole' fashioned common sense will suffice.