Seeking Input on Low Air - No Air Situation

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First, congratulations for keeping your head and getting back safely. This was a lesson you and your son's will not soon forget.

Unfortunately, most new divers are accustom to following the lead and instruction of their instructor. So it is quite natural for you to trust the DM and participate in a "trust me" dive, even after you informed him of your experience level and SCR issues. You'll know better next time. When it's time to thumb the dive (end the dive) you will, regardless of the initial briefing.

Stay safe. :D
 
Thanks for the clarrification of turn pressure. We just used a different term in our training. And thanks for the many quick responses, some even faster than I could type my response. : ) No offense to DMs, but my biggest lesson is to not trust the DM. Had that desire to leave the group but felt torn to do what DM was instructing. If I had gone back when I wanted, I would have been out of the water and then 16yo would have had a buddy. Learned a lot. Hope others can learn from this as well.
 
I would correct this slightly to say that it's the pressure at which you turn your dive to return to your exit point. The amount of air needed to ascend can be considerably less than your turn pressure.
EDIT: Oops sorry Cave Diver I see the problem now, will remove the offending content from both posts.
 
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Thanks for the input. Good points. (I'll respond to both comments at once.) Crush - What is turn pressure?

Cave Diver defined what it is. If you search scubaboard you will find many posts indicating how to calculate it for your specific situation. There will be much to read and you may not retain it all the first time. Let me offer a very simple calculation to at least ball-park your turn pressure. If you are diving an AL80 tank and have the option to make a direct ascent to the surface you can make many assumptions and arrive approximately at:

( Depth (in feet) + 20 ft ) x 10 psi/ft

Say your dive was to 60 ft. Add 20 ft to get 80. Multiply by 10 - your turn pressure is 800 psi - this is the point at which you signal your buddy and head up. If your dive is at 100 ft, add 20 to get 120 then multiply by 10 to get a turn pressure of 1200 psi.

Your dive profile in this post would have allowed for a direct ascent in an emergency but your plan was not for a direct ascent so the above calculation would yield a turn pressure which is too low.
 
tt5five. Thanks for sharing. Responsibility...both. One thing that you quickly learn as a scuba diver, and some do regrettably based on dives like you just experienced, is the fact that you are responsible to look for number one...yourself and be there for your buddy. You should not leave your safety at the hands of a guide/DM.

One important part that is not mentionned is...what was the content of the pre-dive briefing done by the DM. Most places where I have had to follow a DM, they will usually mention an air state at which the entire group or the dive team sstart heading back up. When you are bound by getting back to a mooring, the initial dive plan has to also include the environment (current being one of the factors). I am not getting the feeling that this very important info was either passed or understood .

Also, ideally, you want to start going against the current first and then come back with it as you should use less gas on your return while covering the same distance. So if you use 1000 psi going against, then perhaps you will only use 500 - 750 coming still leaving you with 1250 - 1500 psi to puter around the mooring and still have plenty for the journey up.

Doing the just opposite resulted in you folks using more air, perhaps twice as much, getting back to the mooring then what you had consumed getting to the turn around point. I find interesting that the guide (presumably an experienced diver) never seemed to take into consideration your gas state and elected to complete the dive he had in mind versus shortening it to the lowest denominator to ensure that it remains safe.

If the folks you dealt with work for a dive center/charter, my first recommendation would be to not use them again. If these were friends of yours, then a serious talk is in order. More importantly though...make sure this dive is well captured in your logbook as a lesson learned and discuss it with your son as such. You both should have learned something from it and it should be included in the planning of your next dives to ensure that something like that does not re-occur. If you find the pre-dive briefing inadequate, you have to be pro-active and seek the missing information. If you do not like how the dive is unfolding or you reach set parameters then you have to be assertive enough to tell the guide and your buddy that you are getting back or up, situation depending. The same applies to your buddy. Safe diving.
 
Thanks for the clarrification of turn pressure. We just used a different term in our training. And thanks for the many quick responses, some even faster than I could type my response. : ) No offense to DMs, but my biggest lesson is to not trust the DM. ..................

Exactly! You are responsible for your dive. Barring a planned pressure for your turn, as soon as you were concerned about your air you should have started up. Remember- you can end any dive at any time for any reason- make sure your son's know this as well!
 
Multiply by 10 - your turn pressure is 800 psi - this is the point at which you signal your buddy and head up.

Again, I would point out that there is a difference between ascent pressure and turn pressure. To most of us this is probably just semantics, but since this is in the New Divers Forum I feel it's important for us to be accurate in our definitions to avoid confusion.
 
The dive plan was to decend to 60, go to the end of the ship and return to the anchor line. I guess where it derailed was when we were still going with the current, gave our our pressure and signaled to go up because we were at the 800 mark (where our DM trained us to go up), and the DM motioned us to continue to follow.
How do you know whether 800 psi in one tank is enough gas to get 2 divers to the surface (planned ascent rate + stops) from 60 fsw? Remember that each diver in a buddy pair should have enough gas in his tank to get both divers to the surface in the unlikely event that the other diver loses all of his gas.

Put another way: If you were taught to surface with 500 psi in your tank, how do you know that 300 psi is a reasonable amount of gas for you to surface from 60 fsw (given a safe ascent rate + planned stops)?
 
Without bashing me too hard, I would like to get some comments on an incident on my last trip family dive trip as education for future trips. ... looking for insight or wisdon. Always trying to learn.

Okay, here are some (hopefully) useful comments.

Were instructed not to surface but to get back to anchor line.

Regardless of what the DM says, you are responsible for your own safety. When you're getting low and air, sometimes you have to head for the surface. Better to arrive alive on the surface, than to run out of air at depth on the anchor line (as you almost did).

When there is heavy current, as you mentioned, it is best to be prepared with signalling devices in case you do end up drifitng away. Such devices included SMBs, whistles, signals mirrors, and strobes. I even carry a personal rescue beacon (such as the McMurdo EPLB) when the conditions are predicted to be harsh.

Of course, it is best to avoid a low-air situation in the first place. This can be avoided by some basic gas planning.

Basic gas planning starts with "rock bottom" gas estimations. You can do a search here on Scubaboard for that topic. Basically, you should start ascending at the end of the dive with enough gas to get you the surface in case of emergency. You should know this number before your dive starts. For instance, many people would use a "rock bottom" gas of 800 p.s.i. for an AL80 tank and a depth of 60 feet. This "rock bottom" number varies depending on depth, the type of tank being used, and how much gas you want when you arrive back at the boat.

So... you should have been at the anchor line and starting your ascent from 60 feet with a minimum of 800 p.s.i. in your tank.

If you hit 800 p.s.i. and you're still a long way from the anchor line... then start ascending in open water. Forget about the anchor line, you blew it.

Sounds easy enough, but how do you make sure than you arrive back at the anchor line with 800 p.s.i.?

In heavy current, people commonly use "thirds." Use 1/3 of your gas to explore the wreck, use 1/3 to get back to the anchor line, and save 1/3 for emergencies (such as gas sharing). I should specify that it is 1/3 of available gas, after you've subtracted out you "rock bottom" gas. For instance, using your situation:

Available gas = starting tank pressure - rock bottom = 3,000 p.s.i. - 800 p.s.i. = 2,200 p.s.i.

So "thirds" is 1/3 of 2,200 p.s.i., or 2,200/3 = approx 700 p.s.i.

So you should have explored the wreck until you used 700 p.s.i. and got down to 2,300 p.s.i. (3,000 - 700 = 2,300). Then you should turn around and headed back to the anchor line.

You should arrive back at the anchor line after using another 700 p.s.i., so your pressure on the SPG should read 2,300-700 = 1,600 p.s.i. at the anchor line.

You don't have to ascend up the anchor line until you hit 800 p.s.i., so you can hang around near the anchor line until you drop to 800 p.s.i., at which point you ascend.

In your particular case, you would had to make an adjustment because your starting pressure on the 2nd dive was not 3,000 p.s.i.:

...dive group went down, heavy current moved boat, anchor was not near wreck and had to resurface, take off equipment, reposition boat, re-enter and do second decent.

So you didn't start the 2nd dive with 3,000 p.s.i. Let's say that you started the 2nd dive with only 2,300 p.s.i.:

Available gas = starting pressure - rock bottom = 2,300 - 800 = 1,500 p.s.i.

Thirds = 1/3 of 1,500, or 1,500/3 = 500 p.s.i.

So explore the wreck until you hit 1,800 p.s.i. (2,300-500=1,800) then turn around and head back to the anchor line. Arrive back at anchor line at 1,300 ps.i. (1,800-500=1,300). Explore wreck near anchor line until you hit 800 p.s.i. (rock bottom gas) and then ascend.

If there isn't any current, then you can use "halves" instead of "thirds." This is because, without current, you can always surface anywhere and swim back to the dive boat on the surface. (When there's current, you have to use the anchor line or you will drift away.)

If you are being guided and hit you turn pressures, signal the DM that you need to turn around, or leave the DM and go back to the anchor line yourself.

NEVER LET ANYONE DRAG YOU AROUND PAST YOUR GAS LIMITS. If you reach your gas limits and the DM won't turn around with you, then wave good-bye and take charge of your situation yourself.

Good luck!
 
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