Two fatalities in Monterey

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We are coming up on 20,000 views on this thread.

The tragic death of two young men has, quite obviously, touched a nerve in our SB community.

The discussions can, and I think we all hope, will help provide all of us with thoughts about our dive practices that can be improved and/or passed on.

I have one son coming home in early June. We have a North Coast dive day on our agenda. I have already forwarded this rather lengthy thread for his review.

For all those who have contributed, even the usual ego types, it is a good discussion, very worthy of talking about.
 
Many of the posters are making recommendations, but fail to give their qualifications.

Sorry, this sounds like people aren't qualified to make recommendations - not at all what is meant. I'd just like to know the qualifications...
 
Junior divers more than any should have very graphic descriptions of the risks of diving. I tell all of my students regardless of age how not respecting the risks can hurt or kill them in some very nasty ways. The thing to make sure of is that their training include instruction on how to mitigate these risks. That means rescue skills and lots of task loading exercises to insure their comfort in the water. I have worked with a number or junior divers and the biggest mistake I see made with them is underestimating their level of understanding and ability to respond to emergencies. Kids are fully capable of taking care of themselves and their buddies in many situations. But only if we give them the tools to do so. Make sure their training is as comprehensive as possible. Interview the instructor, shop, and pay attention to the answers they give you. If you want some questions to ask there are some in the sticky in the new divers forum and in my book.

Because the fact is even when diving with a DM that is no guarantee of their safety. That can turn into a "trust me" dive. And those are dangerous in their own right.
 
12. A difference between a CSEA and a Buoyant one is muscle power (at least initially). Oxygen is required to make muscles work. If your tissue oxygen gets too low to sustain muscle function BEFORE surfacing, then your CSEA had better become a buoyant one, else you will sink.
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Important point (they all are) that I believe has been overlooked by some. This thread is getting a bit off the goal of lessons learned, when we really have no factual basis as to the equipment configuration they were in.

However, one thing stands out to me, and that is the position of some tech/cave divers that dropping weights is extremely dangerous, can lead to death, and should never be done. In a cave it won't do any good, and under a deco obligation it is in fact a good way to die an even more painful death than just staying put.

But we are talking about open water divers. In recreational depths.

I agree that running out of air shouldn't occur, that proper training and procedures will prevent it, but it happens so the response to an OOA incident by a OW diver is also important. Bouyant ascents do have risks, but should not be something to be afraid of under an emergency situation.

It is also important that new divers understand that proper bouyancy doesn't just mean neutral at 500 psi. Even more important it means not being heavily negative at the beginning of a dive due to over-compensating for thick wetsuits. I am not saying this was the case with these divers, I am saying that technical/cave divers use gear configurations that are carefully thought out, and a partial adoption by an inexperienced diver may cause more harm than good.

At least that was my experience.
 
Once again, having a DM would not "guarantee" their saftey, but their odds would improve expotentially...
When I suggest a private DM to newbies, it's not so much as a lifeguard but to help them learn thru dealing with a possibly wide variety of challenges - but one may also save a diver from an accident at times.
 
Depends on the DM. The one I cited in my book led a group of unqualified divers on a 100ft wall dive. I'd say that based on the fact that one of the divers in his "care" hit 342 ft and did a 2 minute ascent from 302 resulting in an AGE with the additional complications of nitrogen narcosis and oxygen toxicity, his odds were exponentially worse. The presence of a DM led him to believe that he was safe when in fact he was not. "Trust me, I do this all the time" or "I'll look after you" is something that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up when uttered by a guide or DM not specifically hired for that purpose.

19 divers- 1 DM per buddy pair = 26-27 divers in the water from one boat? That's worse than a herd of cats.
 
12. A difference between a CSEA and a Buoyant one is muscle power (at least initially). Oxygen is required to make muscles work. If your tissue oxygen gets too low to sustain muscle function BEFORE surfacing, then your CSEA had better become a buoyant one, else you will sink.

But shouldn't we be neutrally buoyant when we are diving?

A neutrally buoyant diver should be able to attain positive buoyancy with only a few kicks... a simple 10 ft ascent should be enough to start a positive ascent.

just my .02 cents
 
@raftingtigger: Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the incident. You bring up a lot of good points. One of the things that, in my opinion, makes a good dive pro (DM/AI/instructor) is approaching instruction in a thoughtful way. I get the feeling you're going to do that.
I was trained in buoyant ascents (drop weights at the bottom), but that was in 1973. Many of the posters are making recommendations, but fail to give their qualifications. While I'm not going to make any recommendations in this post, my qualifications are: I'm currently a professional healthcare provider (Physician Assistant in Urgent Care), former Airline Captain (and check airman), ALPA safety committee member with extensive accident and safety training, Flight instructor for many years, former Paramedic, professionally trained Whitewater rafting guide, Swiftwater rescue and Rescue Diver trained. From this vantage point I have a few comments.
I'm not going to assert this in your case, but I've found that the people on any Internet forum who claim authority through certifications, education, or experience, appear rather insecure about the comments they are making. Any thinking, rational human being will be able to read a post, judge the words on their own merit, and appreciate (or not) the author's perspective. FWIW, I'm not a dive pro, and, therefore, I have no formal experience teaching scuba divers. I'm just an average recreational diver with some rescue training.
5. Both young men in this tragedy were NEGATIVELY buoyant at the time they were found – else why were they on the bottom.
Most novice divers whom I encounter are negatively buoyant at any given point on a dive. They are kicking along at an angle (45°?) with the ocean bottom (head-up/feet-down trim). If they stop kicking, they will sink.
6. To paraphrase a 1991 Monterey Diving guidebook: The 23 dive fatalities in the last 20 years (numbers are my best recollection) ALL (my emphasis) had their weight belts on. I do not know if this applies from 1991 to present, but according to our PADI instructor he believes it still does. This is a POWERFUL statistic in my mind.
I'd like to caution you about reading too much into that 1991 report. Your interpretation would seem to suggest that failure to ditch the weightbelt contributed to one or more of those 23 fatalities. Wouldn't it make sense to do an in-depth accident analysis of each specific case...and then draw a conclusion about whether failure to ditch weight contributed to death? After all, correlation does not imply causation.
8. A BCD cannot be inflated underwater if the tank is empty - either by the power inflator or by mouth.
From this statement, you seem to be implying that ditching weight is the only way for a diver with an empty tank to ascend. If a diver wants to ascend to the surface from any depth, why should he ever have to add air (by power inflater or by mouth) to his BCD? A small kick up should initiate an ascent very easily -- air expands in the BCD and neoprene expands as the ambient pressure decreases. Perhaps divers need to learn how to be "neutrally" buoyant at depth. That's something I learned in my PADI basic OW class.
9. I know of only two ways to make a negatively buoyant object into a positively buoyant one. Either increase displacement (ie add air into a BCD) or decrease density (ie drop weights). This is physics.
Don't forget that as you ascend your wetsuit will expand a little as ambient pressure decreases. Also, as you use up air from your tank, this should make you more "positively" buoyant. Obviously, if the tank is already empty, the latter effect doesn't occur in any significant way.
10. Dropping a weight belt does not have to mean dropping all your weights. There is a big difference in dropping a 10-15# belt and a 25-40# belt. This thinking is changing how I'm going to rig my personal (and family) gear. BCDs will carry trim weight, use of ankle weights, and keep the actual ditchable weight belt to a reasonable weight, but one that allows positive buoyancy at any planned depth by its removal. I have discussed this with our PADI instructor and he agrees.
If you or the divers in your charge decide to wear a weightbelt with a weight-integrated BCD, please let the boat crew know about this weight configuration ahead of time. I had an interesting conversation with a very experienced Monterey boat captain who thought splitting up weight in that way was dangerous. (I strongly disagreed BTW.) He shared a story in which he was trying to get a panicked diver back on board his boat. Apparently, he removed the diver's weight-integrated BCD...and the diver immediately began to sink because he was also wearing a heavy weightbelt (apparently counteracting the positive buoyancy of his exposure suit). Fortunately, the captain had a strong hold of the diver and there was a good outcome. The take-home message for me from this story was that the boat crew needs to know how you are carrying your weight. I won't get into who I thought would be responsible if something bad had happened to that panicked diver.
11. You can't hurt a dead person. Drowning IS DEAD ("near drowning" is different), AGE, other lung overexpansion injuries, and DCS while they can cause death, are often treatable.
I'm not sure where you're going with this statement. In any emergency situation, if you can help out in a way that has an acceptable level of risk to you, choose the approach that will result in the best outcome for the victim. If that means getting the diver expeditiously to the surface (and often times it does), figure out a way to do that.
 
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Depends on the DM. The one I cited in my book led a group of unqualified divers on a 100ft wall dive. I'd say that based on the fact that one of the divers in his "care" hit 342 ft and did a 2 minute ascent from 302 resulting in an AGE with the additional complications of nitrogen narcosis and oxygen toxicity, his odds were exponentially worse. The presence of a DM led him to believe that he was safe when in fact he was not. "Trust me, I do this all the time" or "I'll look after you" is something that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up when uttered by a guide or DM not specifically hired for that purpose.

19 divers- 1 DM per buddy pair = 26-27 divers in the water from one boat? That's worse than a herd of cats.
Yeah, there's that flip side. First & foremost, remember that you & bud can and should call the dive and get out safely if needed.

16 kids, 3 adults, 8 DMs - yeah that'd be a lot. It takes what it takes as times, sometimes an extra boat.
 
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