Shooting RAW without a strobe

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chablis

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Hi all,
I currently own a Sealife DC800 with a strobe. I enjoy fine tuning my pictures with Lightroom but I am far from being a pro. I am looking to buy a DSLR camera mainly because my camera shoots only in jpeg and I would like to explore the RAW format.

A potential seller tells me that I dont need a strobe if I shoot in RAW because, according to him, I will be able to regain all the colors by adjusting the white balance and the color temperature with Lightroom. I know that a RAW file is much more versatile compared to a jpeg but if I follow his advice, what kind of result should I expect?

Thanks in advance for your advices. Find attached 3 pics taken last month in Roatan (Honduras).


Cheers!!


Chablis


plonge356215x102.jpg


plonge571315x102.jpg


plonge646322.jpg
 
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.... what kind of result should I expect?

Dark ones. Grainy ones. Silhouettes.

No camera takes good pictures in the dark, not even a DSLR. A strobe allows you to put light where you want it. It also allow you to put it where none (or very little) exists.

You also don't need to go all the way to a DSLR to be able to shoot RAW. There are a number of high end point & shoot cameras out there that are far less expensive and less complicated than a DSLR rig. The Canon S95 comes to mind but there are a number of others. Scan the forums here and you will find the contributors here can offer much better advice than someone trying to sell you something. (Granted, they can be a little opinionated, but they still can offer some pretty good advice) :wink:
 
In addition you can run many lower-end Canon cameras with CHDK. This allows you to shoot raw, as well as a whole host of other improvements, that the most expensive DSLR simply can not do.

CHDK Wiki
 
There are a number of high end point & shoot cameras out there that are far less expensive and less complicated than a DSLR rig.


Yes, the Olympus E-PL2 was one of my options but I decided to go for a DSLR because I also enjoy shooting over the water and a DSLR gives me more challenge as a photographer (both over and under). For a cheaper price, this person offers me a used DSLR (Nikon D-70) with a housing, a dome etc.
 
Hi all,
I currently own a Sealife DC800 with a strobe. I enjoy fine tuning my pictures with Lightroom but I am far from being a pro. I am looking to buy a DSLR camera mainly because my camera shoots only in jpeg and I would like to explore the RAW format.

A potential seller tells me that I dont need a strobe if I shoot in RAW because, according to him, I will be able to regain all the colors by adjusting the white balance and the color temperature with Lightroom. I know that a RAW file is much more versatile compared to a jpeg but if I follow his advice, what kind of result should I expect?....

Shooting RAW helps, but a strobe helps more. You need both.

RAW: The problem is the water above you absorbs light selectively, longer wavelengths first like red and orange. Near the surface, there is little effect. At 10 meters, much of the red is gone; at 30, almost all red is gone. But there is still a little red in the "red channel" of any RAW image. Usually a JPEG image will discard most of that red channel as noise (custom white balance helps avoid that), but the RAW file keeps it all, and you can balance it later in software. So you have a better chance of recovering something like natural colors. But often the processed image is washed out and grainy (if you shot high ISO) unless you use a strobe too. Make sure your camera can shoot RAW, and get the software to manage RAW images. Lots of cameras shoot RAW, both Point and Shoot and DSLRs, so insist on it. The point is shoot RAW, whatever the camera.

STROBE: A strobe helps, by exposing close subjects to more balanced light. Distant objects won't benefit, because the strobe flash scatters and is absorbed like light from above. But you can work with the strobe to get an exciting and colorful closer subject. An older camera with less light sensitivity than the latest ones will still shoot an excellent image with good strobe lighting. And the most expensive camera cannot capture light that is not there, meaning a top of the line DSLR is wasted without good strobes. In some ways the strobe may be more important than a state of the art camera. Certainly the latest technology of camera is excellent -- as long as you have adequate strobes with it. My rule of thumb is to spend at least half my system budget on strobes and the associated tray, arms, and cords.

Take a look at some of the older images from say Gilligan or Wisnu; often they are shot with older, low resolution cameras. Yet -- they are great! That's due to good technique, not technology. Most often they used RAW images and good strobes. You need both.
 
So you have a better chance of recovering something like natural colors.
Which brings up what to me has always been an interesting "ethical" question -- should photographic images show what we saw or what we wanted to see?

IF there is very little red, undetectable red let's say, is it "right" to bring it back in the final image?

Me, I shoot jpeg (I'm very lazy) with a strobe and almost always shooting macro and I've never been convinced that, when shooting macro with a strobe, it makes much difference if you shoot RAW or JPEG.
 
Which brings up what to me has always been an interesting "ethical" question -- should photographic images show what we saw or what we wanted to see?

IF there is very little red, undetectable red let's say, is it "right" to bring it back in the final image?

Me, I shoot jpeg (I'm very lazy) with a strobe and almost always shooting macro and I've never been convinced that, when shooting macro with a strobe, it makes much difference if you shoot RAW or JPEG.

If you only shoot macro with a strobe, you don't need RAW, just shoot JPEG. The strobe gives balanced light, and your subject should be accurately exposed as if it were near the surface. In a sense, if you have a RAW image and you enhance the red channel, you are enhancing the light that is already present, not adding new light. I see it as similar to using flash, or changing the depth at which an image is shot.

Regarding ethics, I think the answer depends on how the image is to be used. In a legal domain, there's one standard. In journalism, there is another. In an artistic domain, another. In the real world, there is a spectrum of demand for accuracy and demand for artistic appeal, depending on your field.

LEGAL: I'm not a lawyer, so this is not legal advice. I suspect there is a whole field of study in criminology regarding digital images that covers many issues. Some of the board members have been forensic photographers in the past, not me, so I'm just giving my personal opinion without that training.

I personally would never trust a digital image to be unaltered unless I knew the exact chain of evidence for the image. Even if you believe the image is unaltered, how accurate is the camera? The camera factory technician adjusts the camera and no two cameras shoot exactly the same image even with the same settings. They set each camera to a known standard for white balance, focus, sensitivity, and so on. There may be dead pixels on the sensor that get mapped out by the camera, and replaced with an average of their neighbors. A lens could be dirty, or the sensor have dust or hair on it. If an image is used in a capital criminal trial, or a large damage civil trial, I'd really want proof that it was an accurate unaltered image. The camera, the media, the photographer, the image storage, all that would need certification.

We all know that people can be compromised if the money is right. Suppose a camera was altered with a WIFI transmitter to send the captured image to a nearby mobile lab, where it could be altered by a technician and sent back to the supposedly secure camera. If a vast sum or money, or the life of a powerful person is at stake, could there be a motive for trying something like this? Very sci-fi I know, but... What if?

Something to think about. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

JOURNALISTIC: In journalism, the photographer has an ethical duty to make an accurate image of his subject. But if the image is not interesting, not visually exciting, not eye-grabbing, will it sell? For a newspaper, probably yes, the event was captured. For a product review, sure. For a feature article, unlikely. For the cover of a magazine, never. That is a different standard, between the legal and the artistic.

ARTISTIC: If we look at how an image is captured by a digital camera, a RAW image is closest to what the camera saw. But it may not be "pleasing" to the eye, what most photographic artists seek. The digital camera makes enhancements to the image in many ways. If we add artificial light, aren't we changing the scene from natural? Before the image is captured, the camera may set the aperture, shutter speed, white balance and focus, all of which affect the image before it is captured.

Faces are a special case. Many cameras are designed to find, focus on and automatically expose for pleasing exposure and white balance on faces, but they adjust mainly for Asian or white faces! As a wedding photographer, I always adjust brighter, say +1/2 ti +1EV, for darker skinned subjects to show the character of the face -- even if the background might be over exposed a bit. There are many special lighting situations like this that require an artistic override of the camera.

After capture, software in the camera "fixes" the image using a vast amount of computing, based on lots of experience the camera maker has with digital images. The in camera software compresses the image and changes it to make it more "pleasing", removing noise, perhaps brightening shadows, altering white balance, fixing red-eye, and so on. Usually that's what the photographer wants. But he may want even more processing by the camera. For that, some cameras have artistic "digital filters" that alter an image more. In any case, the digital camera always changes the image, usually for the better or at least based on the artistic intention of the photographer.

So, I can see different standards for accuracy and creativity depending on the field the image is to be used in.
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The great photographer Ansel Adams would take about 4-8 images per day with his cumbersome 8x10 view camera. A lot of time was spent hiking to the site, moving around for the right vantage point, or waiting for the perfect light, part of his genius. It took but a moment to expose the plate. But his real genius was in the darkroom development of his negatives and prints. He sometimes took what I would think were uninteresting images and with his magic touch in developing and printing, made these altered images into monumental art.

In contrast, I have a large coffee table book of Ansel Adams photos documenting the UC Berkeley campus during the Vietnam War era. Not a single picture was included of protests, sit-ins, arrests, drugs, or anything else related to the subject of politics of the era. They were on the nightly news every night, but not in this book. Perhaps that was the editor's choice, but my impression of the man was lowered by seeing this work. I consider it appalling by the standard of journalism, but acceptable by the standard of art. I suppose that even great artists have to put bread on the table.

But I suppose the conclusion is always shoot images that meet your ethical standards, in addition to artistic standards. You will be remembered as a photographer for both.
 
If you only shoot macro with a strobe, you don't need RAW, just shoot JPEG.
I also find that there is little or no improvement to be gained by using RAW with available light, as compared to using manual white balance. Sometimes I'll be a touch off on the white balance, but a minor tweak takes care of that.

In situations where there is very little red light, the manual white balance will increase the gain of the red channel up to the point where noise dominates. That's the same problem you will have when adjusting after the fact with RAW.

Yes, there is a tiny bit of extra performance you can squeeze out by having the original, unaltered, unprocessed RAW output from the camera analog to digital converter, but for my purposes it isn't worth the extra time it takes to write the data to the flash card, or the extra time it takes me to do the RAW conversions.

It's kind of like full CD quality vs. IPOD or MP3 player quality. The CDs are better quality, but I'll go with the MP3 player for ease of use with "close enough" or "good enough" audio quality for most purposes.

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What manual white balance or RAW or even strobes cannot do is to get a uniform quality of light across the entire scene. The strobe will give nice white light up close, but far away you have the dimmer, red-diminished lighting. Even with available lighting, you will have the problem of the color balance of the scene changing as you get further away from the camera. I have done some post processing where I used a gradient filter to do a variable color balance across the picture, but that is way, way more effort than I will normally go to.
 
have you really looked at a d70? i think you would be better with the e-pl2

the d70 is 6mp and no live view.

the e-pl2 is 12mp with a 3inch live view.

not saying the d70 can't be used but the e-pl2 is i think a better setup for diving
 
Raw mode is also forgiving. Here is a shot that I grossly underexposed. The only difference between the two is that I corrected the exposure in Lightroom. This realy helps someone learning to use manual mode.

Before1.jpg



After1.jpg
 
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