Whats happening to diving certification? Where have the standards gone?

[Togalive]

You know what scares me; instructors telling or having the students dive when they are clearly not ready.

I saw this in the Bahamas when I was there two weeks ago. I was on an afternoon dive with a newly "certified" diver and what I mean by newly certified he spent a few hours in a pool on a resort course. This kid was clearly not ready; you could tell he was nervous but went diving anyway because he paid his fees and did some stuff in a pool. The instructor at his side should of seen that and not taken him out to the wall and then to the wreck in 70 fsw beyond OW limits.

Remember follow the money; it is usually the answer.

I know what you mean! My significant other recently took a Discover Scuba course in Hawaii with her two sisters (none of which are the lady in question for this thread btw). The instructor took the three of them out to a buoy, then had her wait at the surface as he took her two sisters down to 32 fsw. He then proceeded to leave them there and ascend to her as she waited on the surface, and after a few minutes they descended back down to meet her sisters. What went through that instructors head to make him think of leaving two non-divers on the bottom completely unsupervised for an extended period of time is beyond me. Why not just descend as a group?

 

[Thalassamania]

Just a few reasons why computers are better than tables:

• They are easier to use. No more error-prone, flippity-floppity, back and forthy like the tables. At the most, a few button pushes is all it takes, most of the time all you have to do to get them started is get wet.

I've seen many failures using computers, not starting, getting cold and flashing right through the low battery warning, etc.

• They are more reliable. GIGO applies to tables as much as computers and tables rotting in a dive bag constitute a system failure every bit as much as a flooded battery compartment.

I've never seen a set of plastic tables rot.

• They are more precise. Both during planning and dive phases, computers can handle more data and calculations than the tables. By far.

Perhaps too precise, with a set of tables the error is all in the diver's favor and cuts the dive short. Computers "permit" a diver to put him or herself in a more dangerous circumstance.

• They are more efficient. Instead of requiring divers to carry multiple sets of tables, a depth gauge, a timing device and a log, (and backups for each) everything is rolled up into one item.

I carry a set of backup tables, a depth guage, a timer, and a log anyway.

• They are easier to teach. People, especially younger people, grok computers. NOBODY groks the tables without effort.

Actually I find it much easier and faster to teach people to use a set of tables correctly than to use a computer correctly (that is to say with a similar level of risk).

• People actually use them. Anything that results in fewer trust me/follow me dives is a good thing.

Trust me/Follow me dives are the result of poor instruction.

• They are electronic nannies. Even if you forget or screw up, as long as you have one they have your back.

I don't need no stinkin' nanny ... I want to decide on my own ascent rate.

There is nothing wrong with learning and understanding the tables but it's important to remember that the tables are NOT an end in and of themselves. They are a tool, nothing more, and computers are better tools. Students don't need a table to wrap their noodles around the relationship between time/depth/nitrogen loading. Or, better stated, if they do, diving is probably more of an intellectual challenge than they are able to handle and they should consider taking up golf, instead.

I agree with everything you say except for the idea of "better." They are different tool, each with advantages and disadvantages.
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Progress always discomfits the established.

It's really not a question of, "progress discomfiting the established," if it were not for a small group of us, most of whom still use and prefer tables, you likely would still not have computers in general use today.

 

[SDAnderson]

I've seen many failures using computers, not starting, getting cold and flashing right through the low battery warning, etc.

As the guy who runs the repair room at a very busy dive shop, I get to see every failure that divers bring in. There simply aren't many of them, which isn't to say that it never happens You know the drill: if you need one, carry two.​

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I've never seen a set of plastic tables rot.

It doesn't matter whether they rot or not, if they are sitting unused at the bottom of a divers bag or ignored in the back of a log book they have failed. But really, you've never experienced that mungy smell that comes from being constantly damp for days? Must be the chlorine.​

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Perhaps too precise, with a set of tables the error is all in the diver's favor and cuts the dive short. Computers "permit" a diver to put him or herself in a more dangerous circumstance.

Or we could get serious about being conservative and just stay out of the water.​

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I carry a set of backup tables, a depth guage, a timer, and a log anyway.

Really? Duplicates of everything? Backups are essential - no doubt - but two computers versus two sets of tables/two depth gauges/two bottom timers/two log books seems like an easy choice on a number of levels.​

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Actually I find it much easier and faster to teach people to use a set of tables correctly than to use a computer correctly (that is to say with a similar level of risk).

You are the exception. Progress discomfits the established.​

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Trust me/Follow me dives are the result of poor instruction.

Personally, I think they result less from lousy instructors than from lazy divers but it doesn't really much matter why they happen. What's important is that they do - a lot, in the case of "tables only" trained divers - and that computers reduce the problem.​

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I don't need no stinkin' nanny ... I want to decide on my own ascent rate.

Then turn the alarm off and don't worry about it - but don't tell those who want/need the tool that they shouldn't have it.​

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I agree with everything you say except for the idea of "better." They are different tool, each with advantages and disadvantages.

It's not that tables are bad or dangerous. They aren't. At the end of the day, however, the overall performance of computers is superior.​

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It's really not a question of, "progress discomfiting the established," if it were not for a small group of us, most of whom still use and prefer tables, you likely would still not have computers in general use today.

You're such a tease. The few, the proud, the chafed...​

 

[hellhole]

at least at open water... the study of dive table and learning how to use it is a must imo.
then whenever in the future the dive comp is bought.. i think the learning is enhanced...

 

[Thalassamania]

As the guy who runs the repair room at a very busy dive shop, I get to see every failure that divers bring in. There simply aren't many of them, which isn't to say that it never happens You know the drill: if you need one, carry two.
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As the Diving Safety Officer of a major oceanographic institute I not only saw every failure, I had to deal with the reports and the development of future procedures for dealing with such problems. Carry two is not always the answer, e.g., the water in high latitudes was cold enough to drop the battery voltage and blank out computers with brand new batteries in them. Carry two and you had two blank computers.

It doesn't matter whether they rot or not, if they are sitting unused at the bottom of a divers bag or ignored in the back of a log book they have failed. But really, you've never experienced that mungy smell that comes from being constantly damp for days? Must be the chlorine.

That's not a table problem, that's operator malfunction.

Or we could get serious about being conservative and just stay out of the water.

That maybe your solution, it's not mine.

Really? Duplicates of everything? Backups are essential - no doubt - but two computers versus two sets of tables/two depth gauges/two bottom timers/two log books seems like an easy choice on a number of levels.

No, one computer and one watch that also gives me depth, tables in my pouch (and on my watchband), paper logbook since I have to turn in logs anyway, no BFD. You can carry two of everything if you really want to ... but that's not my problem.

You are the exception. Progress discomfits the established.

Not that I've noticed.

Personally, I think they result less from lousy instructors than from lazy divers but it doesn't really much matter why they happen. What's important is that they do - a lot, in the case of "tables only" trained divers - and that computers reduce the problem.

Our experience is different, but then the divers we deal with are trained quite differently, so I'm comfortable with "lousy instruction" as the likely explanation.

Then turn the alarm off and don't worry about it - but don't tell those who want/need the tool that they shouldn't have it.

My computer does not have an alarm, so there is no problem.

It's not that tables are bad or dangerous. They aren't. At the end of the day, however, the overall performance of computers is superior.

Please define superior.

You're such a tease. The few, the proud, the chafed...

I don't understand your reference, but take my word for it, if I had not spent about $300 and had the only stocked bar at the Catalina Lab during the Diving Computer Workshop it would be unlikely that computers would be as accepted as they are today. Strange ... but true.
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[blackvans1234]

Time to move on to dive computers

One may argue that they help prevent mistakes with nitrogen loading after multiple dives IMO

There has always been resistance towards moving onto newer technologies.
Why would someone want to leave their comfort zone?

People tend to think the worst too.
When gasoline engines were created, people were up in arms because gasoline is highly combustible, and you're practically sitting on it.
Today, most of us don't fret over starting our cars up, even though were creating explosions just feet away from gallons of fuel


They stopped teaching children how to write shorthand

To each his own, but technology will probably override the old fashoned way

 

[Thalassamania]

I fail to grasp why, as one of the earliest adopters of dive computers that when I point out their limitations and problems (despite which I use one) I am accused of being resistant towards moving onto newer technologies. Hell, I was diving a breadboarded prototype ORCA EDGE before most folks on this board ever thought about going diving, I even had one of those Canadian dive computers with the "thump" switch that you smacked for input.

 

[Insta-Gator]

Lots of good points here and I used to be one who, being taught to use tables 20 years ago, thought it was essential to understand the tables and how to plan dives manually. Well, I think I've jumped that fence and here's why.

Tables are static.

Computers are dynamic.

I never dive a static/square profile, so why plan for one?

The industry learned long ago that most people (in my opinion/observation) get into SCUBA as an exciting adventure in preparation for a sun filled, warm water vacation. Beyond that, they just don't want to die. So they don't really care that much about the theory. As long as the new diver understands enough to keep the bar graph out of the Red they can have a fun vacation without having to think too much. Besides, they figure they are paying the dive op to "watch over them" (right or wrong, but there it is.) If they enjoy themselves, they will develop the interest to gain further education and understanding.

I look at the tables before every dive to get a set-point for my dive plan. But once in the water I watch the computer. I stopped carrying the tables years ago.

 

[LakeCountyDiver]

I think the biggest problem lies when an instructor teaches for a living. Not all but most from what I see that do it for a living rather then for fun seem to run them through as fast as possible thus turning out a s#!%* diver. They seem to think there doing them a favor by giving them a super fast class but it really boils down to money. More certs more money.

Some of the best instructors I have seen have full time jobs and teach for fun therfore there not worried about the money. They seem to care a little more about the standards and producing better divers.

 

[Garrobo]

In this day and age teaching tables in a diving class is about the same as teaching an auto mechanics student how to set points and rebuild carburetors.