tangential issues from a mishap thread

[coldwatercanada]

my facts where about cold water diving and in disagreement with poor, unhelpful, speculation. and i didnt attack i just said all he posted was uneducated hearsay,

Im padi idc staff instructor with several alberta based stores, I have around 1700 cold water dives. and have been at the professional ranking for 8 yrs diver for 11ish

 

[coldwatercanada]

and no i read the boards becuase you dont need an account to review i just saw something that happened close to home and felt like giving my 2 cents so i created an account.

 

[coldwatercanada]

sorry 1300 cold water and 400 warm

 

[Jax]

my facts where about cold water diving and in disagreement with poor, unhelpful, speculation. and i didnt attack i just said all he posted was uneducated hearsay,

Im padi idc staff instructor with several alberta based stores, I have around 1700 cold water dives. and have been at the professional ranking for 8 yrs diver for 11ish

Thank you. And remember, Mark had already stated it was heresay.

So, you are saying (above) that in your experience, there is a staff member assigned to every student? Is that normal for that lake or area? Of just for that dive shop?

As far as them "not being separated from the group" since you assume his buddy was a staff member ... why not? Isn't navigation one of the AOW skills? There are perfectly good reasons for them to not be with the group.

I find that one to one staff ratio mind-boggling. That is an extremely high overhead for a business.

 

[coldwatercanada]

When i run my classes i have several different divemaster's/AI's that are willing to come out just for the experence and to get dives logged. I always have at least one paid staff member with me and usually 2-3 unpaid. The people i want in the water with me are the people willing to come out and help becuase they love diving and want to be involved and develope there skills as divemasters or AIs or instructors. Not all instructors follow this practice how ever the dive shops ive been affaliated with keep the ratios 2/3-1 for AOW and a 3/4-1 ratio for COW. but for example if conditions are unfaverable ill do 2 dives with 3 people instead of 1 dive with 6. IF your greedy this is doing twice as much work for the same amount of cash but i love diving so i dont care. Ill never take students by myself even with with a high confidence in my abilities. Also i dont teach diving for a living i have another job so if i need to cut my profits in half to keep the students safe and happy i will.

The latest rumor i heard was that the student went to 200 feet which is an amazing feat considering the lake is only 18 meters deep

 

[coldwatercanada]

plus at least 3 stores in edmonto pay the dms. . . the instructor gets paid per class and then they get the choice on how many dms to pay to come help. So usually instructors with smaller staff sizes dont want to pay extra to there dms or are not well liked ha ha

 

[coldwatercanada]

padi teaches you to sell classes becuase some students dont know what the next step is, or know where to go for further instruction. I start it even in the classroom/pool! This is more of an education then a sales pitch. i talk about courses i cant even teach just cause depending on their vacation destination it might be an option for them. I also dont push the AOW on nervous students but on the fish in the group i do! My first 5 months diving i went from AOW to starting my dm and got over 100 dives so saying you shouldnt offer insite into further classes is a poor opinion for the sport.
Its up to the instructor to have the students best interest in mind at all times. If i have a student that after they get there OW prolly will never dive cold water again i still tell them about the AOW and help them find out if the place their visiting offers it.

 

[elan]

true but most divers in alberta use 14mm suits untill they get the drysuit certification its a very commen suit to use and is rated for up too ice diving. i did dives in water as cold as 38 degrees before i got my drysuit

Can we see the ratings ?

a regular bathing suit is rated up to ice diving too http://www.eidner-berlin.de/eisbaden/2771.jpg

 

[Jax]

What with the divers on the St Lawrence, Canadians have sure carried the lion's share of tragedies today.

Sorry for your loss.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

And this is a major issue with training today. Pushing classes to students who have barely completed the paperwork on the first class. Like you I did the fast track to starting DM. The instructor encouraged it. After getting disgusted with the whole sell em the next class mentality to the point where I nearly gave up altogether on the professional route and taking some time to just dive, I rediscovered my love of teaching with a shop that did not push con ed. In fact they discouraged people from jumping into the next class too fast. And what I saw was more people who continued to dive and enjoy it. More also came back for further training. After striking out on my own I decided to stick with that model and it works. I don't certify large numbers. But every OW student I've taught is still diving and diving regularly.

Having the students best interest in mind does not mean separating them from their money for classes. It's encouraging them to work on what they have just learned until they are comfortable with it then gently suggest something else. I also do not recommend the AOW class as the next step for a number of students. Some have no interest in going deep. So I recommend the UW Nav class. In mine the emphasis is on buddy skills and includes some rescue skills as does the OW class I teach. This seems to be one of the big issues with AOW classes. They teach little. They are used as a taste or tour of advanced dives. And most divers have no rescue skills going into them. Rescue skills that used to be part of every OW course. How many of these AOW deaths might have been prevented if the buddy had the ability to bring a diver up from depth, assist a panicked diver, and knew how to drop weights and support a diver at the surface?

I'd rather see divers do rescue before AOW. Giving them a license to gain access to sites and dives that require advanced skills with no rescue skills is asking to have people end up dead. And if the diver was overweighted and the buddy could not get them up or assist with a free flow also indicates that the buddy skills of the divers were pretty bad. And if the diver's buddy was a pro- then they should have their card yanked. A buddy will see a diver overweighted as will a pro. If they don't they have no business calling themselves either a buddy or a professional.

padi teaches you to sell classes becuase some students dont know what the next step is, or know where to go for further instruction. I start it even in the classroom/pool! This is more of an education then a sales pitch. i talk about courses i cant even teach just cause depending on their vacation destination it might be an option for them. I also dont push the AOW on nervous students but on the fish in the group i do! My first 5 months diving i went from AOW to starting my dm and got over 100 dives so saying you shouldnt offer insite into further classes is a poor opinion for the sport.
Its up to the instructor to have the students best interest in mind at all times. If i have a student that after they get there OW prolly will never dive cold water again i still tell them about the AOW and help them find out if the place their visiting offers it.