tangential issues from a mishap thread

[Blue Sparkle]

"
For someone who wasn’t there you seem to be fairly certain with your facts! ... I’d like to correct a few alarming items with this thread.

My understanding is the ratios up there were 1 staff to every student, which means their buddy would have been staff

... the dive shops ive been affaliated with keep the ratios 2/3-1 for AOW

So I'm getting from this that you/your shops use a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio for AOW, but the shop that was teaching the AOW in this incident uses a 1:1 ratio.

I'd rather see divers do rescue before AOW. Giving them a license to gain access to sites and dives that require advanced skills with no rescue skills is asking to have people end up dead.

what certification lets you do rescure before ow????

I believe Jim is saying that he would like to see students take Rescue before AOW, not before OW. From a new-diver perspective, I can understand that, and I think I might tend to agree (at least it could be an option). In AOW you can do some deep/challenging dives.

 

[markmantei]

I had to do some work to pay for my scuba habbit so thank you for those who stepped in to defend me.

I don't know how the Calgary stores run there AOW but in Edmonton by Sunday the divers have already done 3 dives. One of which is the Peak performance dive where a dive professional watches them perform skills such as hover at several different depths, Swimming through obstacles testing their buoyancy skills, adding or shedding weights as needed. So regardless of what dive they were on they already have had a day of practice.

I don't think bickering over how Calgary shops train compared to Edmonton shops is helpful at all. This is not an Edmonton vs Calgary issue. By the way, I have not done any training dives with a Calgary shop, I was certified by a shop in Edmonton. From speaking with divers who did train with various Calgary shops, they are very safe and throrough in their instruction.

From DAN "1 death per 200,000 dives" PADI Canada "7-10 training deaths a year"

How many deaths are acceptable? 7-10, 5, 3, 1? I think it is helpful to analyze each of these incidents to try and reduce the number as much as possible. The point is not to place blame on any individual, but to try and find some POTENTIAL causes for the incident. Obviously mistakes were made along the way, otherwise this poor kid would be talking to his friends right now about what a great time he had diving in Jasper.

I think the biggest issue with AOW immediatly after OW is, at least in my experience, OW training imparts the knowledge of the skills neccessary to dive safely, but does not allow enough time to master them, I find it difficult to believe that even a fish can master all of the skills in 4 or 5 dives. Experience only comes with diving.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

see and i dissagree becuase in the AOW you learn/practice your peak perform and your under water nav but also search and recovery, 3 areas you need to be proficient in to pass the PADI rescue course. Maybe the other organizations have less requirments for there rescue classes but id never want an ow student in my rescue courses!

For NAUI and SEI, navigation skills are taught at the OW level, and so the diver comes into Rescue already understanding the basics. S&R patterns and techniques are part of the curriculum ... they're taught in the Rescue class ... so you don't need to learn them beforehand. What you call peak perform is, I assume, buoyancy ??? I teach that at the OW level ... by the time my students are ready to be OW certified, they are able to do all skills off the bottom.

and what if you need to perform a rescue at deeper then 60 feet?

If you're only OW certified, then you shouldn't be deeper than 60 feet ... so that need should not exist.

But from a practical perspective, let me ask you something. Do you think someone who's gone straight from OW to AOW ... and who's done one guided dive deeper than 60 feet ... is in any way qualified to perform a rescue at deeper than 60 feet?

I don't. That diver would be so inexperienced that by attempting something as task-loading as a rescue they'd be placing themselves at a pretty high risk potential ... and that would violate the first rule of rescue, which is to not turn yourself into a second casualty ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[coldwatercanada]

the ratios depend on the instructors they get told what the shop requires and its up to them to decided who to bring with them, and honestly I like the AOW. It teaches basic skills needed for rescue!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

what skills are included with the advanced skills?

... among other things ... how to not run out of air ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

the ratios depend on the instructors they get told what the shop requires and its up to them to decided who to bring with them, and honestly I like the AOW. It teaches basic skills needed for rescue!

... what basic skills would those be?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[coldwatercanada]

"If you're only OW certified, then you shouldn't be deeper than 60 feet ... so that need should not exist."

Most of the rescues ive done are paniced divers in 30 feet. I mean again its all up to the diver i mean padi and these other certifications give there requirments but its up to the instructor and the store. Also i highly doubt in your OW course you get the students to perform squares, directional paterns, and ppb in different levels of water with different exercises ie hula hoops, decent hovers and so on. . . I could be wrong i suppose?

"Do you think someone who's gone straight from OW to AOW ... and who's done one guided dive deeper than 60 feet ... is in any way qualified to perform a rescue at deeper than 60 feet?"

I dont think someone with 4 ow dives is able to either, and id trust task loading a AOW more then an OW. Telling people they need 50 dives before they can take anymore courses is overkill! diving is adult education, you get told the risks and you get told the requirments and its up to the adult student to decide if there ready and the instructor to monitor them through out!

 

[Crush]

I am not perfectly clear as to if the buddy was able to get the student to the surface, but in any event, he fell back down. The buddy was able to get the attention of someone onshore to call emergency services. Some other divers entered the water to attempt to locate and rescue the diver. When the diver was located @ about 60 feet by the first diver she was unable to get the diver to the surface. Additional divers assisted, however it took 2 divers with fully inflated equipment to lift the diver to the surface, again, rumor, but it sounds as if the diver had close to 50lbs of weight on him.

It drives me NUTS that so many divers don't take a rescue course. In fact, perhaps SRD should be a prerequisite for a deep dive in cold water. There was no need for the victim to fall back to depth. What might have been a rescue followed by successful CPR almost certainly became a recovery effort after the buddy dropped the diver then couldn't raise the victim. It is a simple matter to orally inflate someone else's BCD, and that is precisely what should have been done.

 

[coldwatercanada]

it teachs the nav and search and recovery and ppb which are all skills they need so we dont have to teach them in rescue

 

[boulderjohn]

"
From DAN "1 death per 200,000 dives" PADI Canada "7-10 training deaths a year"

Can you please give an exact citation for either of these "facts"?

One of the problems with estimating scuba safety is the inability to determine the number of dives to use as the denominator in that fraction. If DAN has that information, it will be enormously valuable, and I think I would like to see where they got it.

I read the DAN fatality reports every year, and I don't believe I have ever seen a single year in which there were close to 7 training deaths in the U.S. and Canada combined. I would like to see where you got those statistics.

BTW, saying it is from DAN is not enough--please show the exact report so we can look it up ourselves.