What makes someone an "Advanced Scuba Diver"?

[DaleC]

Bob, at the risk of attempting a little hijack I will add this to the discussion.

IMO, the reason we concern ourselves so much about labels such as "advanced" and "technical" is that many modern divers have no motivation for diving other than diving itself, and thus try to use such terms to define themselves within the activity ie. I am an advanced/technical etc... diver. The means are the end so to speak and have no other function.

Others utilize diving as a means to an end and define their experience by the end and not the means ie. I am a spearfisherman/archeologist/naturalist etc... They don't define themselves by the diving but rather by what they do with it.

I think some people dive advanced dive sites because it sounds good to say they did so. No other reason really. If you asked them what was so special about the site they might not even be able to tell you, other than it seemed challenging or perhaps they heard it was cool.

Others dive a site for a reason, because there is something specific there they want to see or do. Those people probably take a little more time to research and anticipate the environment they are entering and prepare accordingly.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

Unfortunatly it only takes 5 dives and $30 to have a card proving you are an advanced diver, with the 4 dives to be certified, it is 9 dives total.

I hear you on the OW training often being minimal - I took two of those classes. But on the second part, I don't think that matches the thread subject, which is "Advanced Scuba Diver." The card I believe you are referring to is not "Advanced diver" but rather merely "Advanced Open Water diver."

As OW = beginner," so AOW = "advanced beginner."

I think of an Advanced Scuba Diver, such as in the title of this thread, being something completely different. Although I think the definition there may be a bit subjective, I don't believe there would be any "beginner" in it.

Blue Sparkle
(not advanced, although perhaps advanced-beginner)

 

[boulderjohn]

Number of dives is deceptive. In a recent thread a diver mentioned that he had over 200 dives, all from cruise ships and all less than 20 meters. In comparison, David Shaw completed full cave certification with 85 dives, and his fatal dive was only something like his 333rd dive, yet he was probably the only diver in the world "advanced" enough to try it.

 

[Bob DBF]

I hear you on the OW training often being minimal - I took two of those classes. But on the second part, I don't think that matches the thread subject, which is "Advanced Scuba Diver." The card I believe you are referring to is not "Advanced diver" but rather merely "Advanced Open Water diver."

As OW = beginner," so AOW = "advanced beginner."

I think of an Advanced Scuba Diver, such as in the title of this thread, being something completely different. Although I think the definition there may be a bit subjective, I don't believe there would be any "beginner" in it.

Blue Sparkle
(not advanced, although perhaps advanced-beginner)

Unfortunatly the agencies have dumbed down the classes so you are correct, but their pitch does not match the result.

If you are boat diving and need a deep card for a deep dive and an advanced card for an advanced dive what is a diver to think?

The problem is that the word advanced is subjective and the agencies who should be maintaining the standards for it's use in diving, have been lowering the standards over the years without changing the title. I like Thal's definitions in post #2 because it quantifies the abilities rather than leaving up to the imagination of the diver and the agency.

An open water diver was trained in the open ocean, otherwise they were certified as scuba divers. I was an Open Water Diver for 29 years after diving 17 years without certification, I believe I was past beginner. Other than Nitrox, the training I took recently had nothing to do with diving. I don't show the cards because my OW class and experience outshines the new plastic, and what DM is going to call a old man with OW card and gear older than he.


Bob
--------------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Number of dives is deceptive. In a recent thread a diver mentioned that he had over 200 dives, all from cruise ships and all less than 20 meters. In comparison, David Shaw completed full cave certification with 85 dives, and his fatal dive was only something like his 333rd dive, yet he was probably the only diver in the world "advanced" enough to try it.

Given the outcome, perhaps he wasn't "advanced" enough to try it.

Same goes for Agnes Milowka ... she was relatively inexperienced considering the complexity of the dives she was doing.

So it begs the question ... were these divers truly "advanced" enough for the dives that killed them? Or did they simply push too hard and exceed their ability to make the appropriate decisions under the circumstances that led to their death?

To my own way of thinking, both of those divers had well surpassed what I would consider "advanced" scuba diving, and had moved into areas of expertise that are very specialized, requiring both specialized training and sufficient experience to develop a problem-solving ability that most of us will never have to contemplate.

This is what makes the topic interesting ... even if it is virtually impossible to put some objective criteria on the term ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DivemasterDennis]

Could it be that defining an advanced diver is like defining pornography? It can't be described exactly, but you know it when you see it. The difficulty of codification of the skills and/or experience and/or credentials to qualify as an "advanced diver" is also impacted by the perspective of the one defining the term. To a new recreational diver, anyone who has a few more dives then they have may be experienced, while people like BoulderJohn and BobDBF and NWGreatful all define the term in part as compared to themselves as divers, and does everyone. I may not make their list with my not quite 1000 dives, professional credential, but aversion to technical diving- I am an recreational diver. I am I think the point is well made that a diver regardless of the number of dives they have who goes only on escorted dives and trusts to someone else to see to maintain and inspect their gear is never an advanced diver. Nor would I confuse fitness for a particular dive with being an "advanced diver" generally. That is why I think any definition must include the following: 1) excellent buoyancy and body control skills; 2) excellent navigation skills; 3)sufficient equipment knowledge to maintain and inspect the equipment the diver uses, and recognize and correct problems with it; 4)ability and knowledge to plan a safe recreational dive and carry it out without professional supervision. These attributes are acquired in a number of different ways and at different rates of learning and mastery by each individual. These four criteria also implicate many more specific comments in the thread, including problem solving skills, conditions recognition, etc. I think DaleC has it right- most people who speak of being advanced divers are self descriptive in the way that a t-shirt or the words on their c-card may be, and neither of those things mean much when it comes to substance. Nor does making some 100 foot deep dives make you an advanced diver any more than going on a cenote "trail ride" dive makes you a cave diver. When I work with students in the PADI advanced class, I usually have divers with 9 to 30 prior dives including certification dives. They will get in five dives with me. We focus heavily on buoyancy, navigation, problem recognition and problem solving thinking. I stress equipment familiarity and dive planning as well. But lets face it: even the most thorough class will not create an "advanced diver " by any reasonable definition. In an intense class the divers will emerge as better divers than when they started (at least for a while) with another 4 hours of bottom time and some tips to use as they continue to grow. In a "met the guidelines and course content" class, they emerge with less. But they have shown an interest in improving themselves as divers by taking the class, and that is a big deal. Oh, some just want the card so they can dive the Speigel Grove or the Molokai hammerhead charter, but most are interested, enthusiastic and want to be better divers. So when the pros , you guys on this thread, and the advanced divers who may not happen to be instructors, dive with these folks, it is us who can help them become advanced divers- independent, safe, and frankly people we would be willing to dive with. Advanced diver- I know one when I see one. To paraphrase Aristotle, don't tell me you are an advanced diver. Let me watch you dive for a day, and I'll tell you if you are an advanced diver.
DivemasterDennis

 

[fdog]

I have always tried to make a point of diving/climbing/skiing/etc with folks that are way better than me.

Someday, when I catch up with the folks I dive with, I might be worthy of "advanced". In the meantime, I am happy that these folks are willing to invite me on dives.


All the best, James


PS: I can't describe one, but I know an Advanced Diver when I see one.


<edit> HA! I see Dennis & I had the same thought...!

 

[markmud]

I have to go somewhere right now but to answer your question specifically.
I'd flip my buddy the "I'm ascending" hand signal and resign myself to a mid water ascent, cursing all the way. I would also resign myself to floating around for a while but would try to swim obliquely to the current with hopes of snagging the shore. Sucks to be me.
As Kenny Rogers once said: You gotta know when to hold em; know when to fold em...

Hey DaleC,

You stole my thunder! Although, I would have swam perpendicular to the current first after checking my compass to get a heading back to the wall, just in case I lost sight of the wall. Sometimes, their is a reverse current on the outer edges of a rip that can help get you back to the wall (for every action, their is an equal but opposite reaction). My plan B may not be an option if my gas supply is below 2/3; when a probelm occurs, a diver should start thinking in terms of "the rule of thirds," even if you are doing a shallow rec dive. Other than that, your plan B is right-on.

markm

 

[markmud]

Thallasmania,

I enjoyed the post that included this:

"Competent: The diver now has a good working knowledge of diving, as well as some background knowledge of diving, and as a result can deal with knowledge in context. Recognition of relevance is now present. Actions are seen, at least partly, in terms of longer-term goals. The diver is able to cope with simple multiple, simultaneous, and competing inputs. The diver sees actions (at least partially) in terms of longer-term goals. The diver performs best with standardized and routine procedures, but is able to achieve most tasks using his or her own judgment and can alos engage in conscious and deliberate planning. Skills are fit for the purpose intended, though they may lack refinement."

This definition best fits my ability.

I know my limitations. I also know my psychological make-up which includes some dislexia (I am a SPED).

I dive within recreational limits because this suits my experience level and psychological make-up.

People who have dived with me consider me to be advanced. I know because, on guided trips, they grant me lots of leeway when dive planning and allow me to dive solo when we are diving less than 60' and without a current (I am writing about Divemasters and dive boat operators). I don't ask for exceptions to their rules; they offer to relax their rules.

OR, maybe they are trying to use Darwinism to improve the gene pool.

The term "advanced" is a subjective term that is relative to the type of diving being performed. I may be an advanced diver between the tropic of Capricorn and the tropic of Cancer in less than 60' with no current; however, I am a complete novice at 130' for 20 minutes.

markm

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Some great comments and perspectives in here so far.

My purpose in creating this thread was to hopefully stimulate a broad perspective on the subject.

What we're seeing here is why (I believe) the range of topics we get in a forum titled "Advanced Scuba Discussions" is all over the map, and incredibly difficult to categorize ... and why (in my opinion) it's probably not a good use of bandwidth to get too invested in which forum someone chooses to post a particular topic ... because how well it fits that particular categorization really depends on the perspective of the person doing the posting.

Thanks to all who've contributed so far for some insightful comments ... please keep them coming ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)