DIR/GUE Attitude: I just don't see it

[danvolker]

Dear Jerrod,

IMHO it is far more than one or two asses that self-identify as DIR divers. In fact, there were enough that (I am a neophyte and have only Fundies - rec pass at that) I chose to unsubscribe myself from the DIR forum because I did not want to be associated with such asses, nor did I care to read about their ideas on diving. Your post inspired me to re-join, if only to complain.

You did choose a very comfortable, safe space in which to post your thread. I would likely have done the same to avoid trolls, but you are missing some diversity of opinion in posting in a DIR-only area. It is kind of like posting "I don't believe that everyone doesn't like Jesus" in a born-again forum.

Cheers,

Crush

Wow Crush,
Anyone that has been on SB, knows that you can find plenty of people you won't like in any forum....You will find plenty of people you don't like in ANY large gathering of people.
At least with the DIR group, a "new" diver ( or one new to going in the direction of tech), can eliminate stupid and unsafe advice--given either on an internet forum, or by a diver they met on a boat or in a shop.

Things like "should I buy a double bladder 80 pound lift wing"....or, "can I use double steel 100's with my 7 mill wetsuit on a 200 foot dive?"...these are questions that will be answered foolishly on many tech forums, but will be answered safely on the DIR forum.

If you think he needs to hear all the ideas being bandied about, maybe visiting the other tech forums also will help with perspective, but if he uses the DIR forum for a safety baseline, I think he will be better off.

 

[Ragnar]

Crush, curious, did you find even one of those types in your fundies class or on a dive boat somewhere or only on the internet? DIR on the internet has made me so mad at times I've almost broken some of my own things, so I can relate, but in real life i wish I discovered it a lot earlier. Even excluding all the benefits of better training I would have saved a small fortune on gear that I wasn't happy with and sold at a loss over the years. Forget the idiots, having a system of diving that has a rational answer for most questions regarding gear or actual diving is a HUGE benefit. Even if deciding to not follow DIR to-the-letter it still narrows down a GIANT pile of crap to a reasonable set of gear and procedures.

 

[Crush]

...but will be answered safely on the DIR forum.

But I thought that I have seen posts by Kevrumbo in the DIR forum...

Since I have a dissenting opinion I thought that I would share that with Jerrod.

The few GUE divers that I have met in person have been without exception very nice people. Those that I have interacted with online have been, well, "varied." A few of my complaints about some GUE divers whose posts I have read are that they seem to be:

1. Overly gear-centered. This likely stems from a belief that there is truly only one way to Do It Right. For example, many months ago a noted DIR practitioner advocated a BP&W to a diver to improve his trim (which was horrible). Now, while a BP&W might help, what would really have helped that diver with better trim would be to re-distribute his weights in trim pockets (and possibly reviewing how much weight he need). Many divers achieve excellent trim with a jacket BC; and
2. Very insular. It is one thing to decide for yourself that you only want to dive with GUE divers. It is another to suggest this to others as a form of best practice, and to suggest that one must simply "look harder" to find GUE buddies.

Safe diving.

-Crush

---------- Post Merged at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:21 AM ----------

Even if deciding to not follow DIR to-the-letter it still narrows down a GIANT pile of crap to a reasonable set of gear and procedures.

But DIR is a holistic system that musn't be reduced to parts...

As per your online-[insert bad word here] vs [insert bad word here] that have met in real life - all the [insert bad word here] were of the online type.

 

[danvolker]

But I thought that I have seen posts by Kevrumbo in the DIR forum...

Since I have a dissenting opinion I thought that I would share that with Jerrod.

The few GUE divers that I have met in person have been without exception very nice people. Those that I have interacted with online have been, well, "varied." A few of my complaints about some GUE divers whose posts I have read are that they seem to be:

1. Overly gear-centered. This likely stems from a belief that there is truly only one way to Do It Right. For example, many months ago a noted DIR practitioner advocated a BP&W to a diver to improve his trim (which was horrible). Now, while a BP&W might help, what would really have helped that diver with better trim would be to re-distribute his weights in trim pockets (and possibly reviewing how much weight he need). Many divers achieve excellent trim with a jacket BC; and
2. Very insular. It is one thing to decide for yourself that you only want to dive with GUE divers. It is another to suggest this to others as a form of best practice, and to suggest that one must simply "look harder" to find GUE buddies.

Safe diving.

-Crush

---------- Post Merged at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:21 AM ----------



But DIR is a holistic system that musn't be reduced to parts...

As per your online-[insert bad word here] vs [insert bad word here] that have met in real life - all the [insert bad word here] were of the online type.

DIR is a hollistic system, but recreational divers can definately benefit from parts or aspects of it.

This is how DIR went out to the masses in the late 90's, and it is still true today.

Where mix and match are not appropriate, is deep in cave, or on 300 foot deep wreck dives in ocean. For this, yes, try to be full GUE on this.
But the diving universe is mostly recreationals, and the best part of DIR for them is the common sense parts, things like donating the long hose, how to get bouyancy and trim squared away, and how to use the buddy system.

 

[Ragnar]

But DIR is a holistic system that musn't be reduced to parts...

But even if it is it's still better than just buying random shiny things off the dive-shop wall or being a diver with hundreds of dives who still beats up marine life with an inefficient foot low profile

As per your online-[insert bad word here] vs [insert bad word here] that have met in real life - all the [insert bad word here] were of the online type.

Me too, I'll leave my signature as is.

 

[Jerrod]

Since this thread went in all directions. I'll offer why I went toward DIR. All of this is my own opinion.

Equipment:
I am a relatively new divers and decided I better try different configurations before I committed to buying something the local shops were pushing. After trying all types of bulky gear, I thought I liked the jacket BC. After trying the backplate and wing, in my GUE primer, I was sold instantly. You mean this is the same price as your bulky BC jacket, allows for many possibilities and configurations from sidemount to doubles, and it's about the same price (sure you need different wings, but again just a different wing not a different BC)?

The local shop was in shock when I said I hated the Air2 and found it inferior. So when I started looking for regulators, I was honestly unsure about the 7 foot hose. I ended up going with it after much thought. I have never been in an out of air situation and most people I know have never encountered one in real life (I am new though), so i take their word for it that it's better in a real event. I have had the odd comment of "man, that's a long hose," almost jokingly, but most want to really learn about it.

I still use cressi fins, but when they get old, I will get something better. They are just too lite.

Attitude and Experience:
I went on several dive trips and I noticed all the advanced divers were everywhere, an every person for themselves attitude. On that same trip, we had a boat go dangerously overhead and I realized, even a 25ft dive must be treated as an overhead drive. This is why I began training so heavily as a tech diver, I have no desire to go in caves, caverns, or really go deep, but I train that way so my diving is much better. And you know what? Because I have trained for maskless ascents while sharing air, I am so much more comfortable in the water.

Fitness:
I am out of shape and I do admit I am doing that part wrong, but I am working on it.

Training:
You can read my post in the SSI forum about my opinion on diving agencies. I held this opinion long before learning about tech diving and their message. But in the end, it is all about the instructor. After my experiences, I now have to watch them teach a class and interview them. If I am iffy, I will go on a dive with them. Luckily I found a good former GUE trainer to work with over the next few years.

The one thing I have noticed about myself, is I am finding it harder to take seriously any training agencies that don't promote the basics of the "DIR" principles. For example horizontal trim and buoyancy. I just watched the NAUI master diver intro and there is a woman wailing her arms and totally vertical in about 15 feet of water and over a reef. I had to laugh.

I would recommend most of the DIR principles for any rec divers out there unsure of how to proceed in their diving careers.

Jerrod

 

[Crush]

The one thing I have noticed about myself, is I am finding it harder to take seriously any training agencies that don't promote the basics of the "DIR" principles.

I have no problem with any part of your post except this. To describe the principals of good trim and buoyancy control as "DIR principals" does a disservice to the (older) cave diving communities from which early DIR divers learned them.

 

[ucfdiver]

I have no problem with any part of your post except this. To describe the principals of good trim and buoyancy control as "DIR principals" does a disservice to the (older) cave diving communities from which early DIR divers learned them.

I know you're looking to nit pick, but given his context it's possible that the principles/foundations in DIR diving are shared with other ideologies.

 

[lamont]

1. Overly gear-centered. This likely stems from a belief that there is truly only one way to Do It Right. For example, many months ago a noted DIR practitioner advocated a BP&W to a diver to improve his trim (which was horrible). Now, while a BP&W might help, what would really have helped that diver with better trim would be to re-distribute his weights in trim pockets (and possibly reviewing how much weight he need). Many divers achieve excellent trim with a jacket BC; and

The gear-centered problem is entirely due to your getting information from hanging around on the internet and probably listening to divers with a hundred dives and a brand spanking new fundies tech pass burning a hole in their pocket. You can fix that problem if you like, or you can just perpetuate the issue by complaining about it on the internet. Nobody here can fix that for you.

1. Very insular. It is one thing to decide for yourself that you only want to dive with GUE divers. It is another to suggest this to others as a form of best practice, and to suggest that one must simply "look harder" to find GUE buddies.

https://vimeo.com/49663727
https://vimeo.com/50460899

Those two videos are from 2 weekends ago. I setup the boat and I'm GUE C2/T1. My primary buddy on those dives is taking GUE T1 in about a week. The other team has one diver who is GUE Fundies-Tech and is now working on NAUI T1, the other diver is a lady who has been an OW DM for decades now and has had two bilateral knee operations and is not GUE trained.

I used to have a job that had a scuba club with a budget and I'd get a free boat trip every 2-3 months. None of my co-workers were GUE trained and we used to do boat dives around here, and it took them months to finally look up my rockbottom page and ask me some questions, I never pushed anyone towards GUE, I just enjoyed the diving... They were all OW divers that got out once or twice a month. I was the only GUE diver on those entire boats. Surprisingly, nobody died.

 

[Jerrod]

Crush,

After reading this thread, I know I don't understand the entire history of diving or where everything comes from. I am sure you are right, I even noticed in this month's Diver Training magazine on the last page, it claims that horizontal trim with knees bent is the best and it mentions nothing about tech.

Also for example, in my OW class, the instructor taught a dive head first approach and to reach the destination you sort of swoop in like a plane. His argument was that it's better than the feet first because you don't know where your going. I disliked both methods and another instructor told me about the horizontal position.

Keep in mind I do have limited experience. Hopefully once I get through this US Navy dive book, I'll understand a lot more about diving.

Also as an exercise, I would recommend anyone that has a chance to do the mathematics behind what their dive computer is doing. Since doing this, I now feel more comfortable with using a computer.

Thanks,
Jerrod