DIR/GUE Attitude: I just don't see it

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Quick summary:

1. George and others waged a spirited and aggressive war with cave divers (and deep decompression divers) whom they felt were following dangerous practices that could get people killed.
2. That war made strongly worded points about the dangers of using gear and methods that were not part of the DIR philosophy while engaged in cave diving and deep ocean diving.
3. The DIR leaders decided to promote their ideas among the recreational community as well, and Dan wrote an influential essay to that effect.
4. That drive to promote those practices in the recreational community may not have been sufficiently clear in noting that some of the more strident statements were meant for the cave and deep ocean diving communities alone, and DIR practitioners following the directive to promote DIR diving in the recreational community may have taken things a bit too far by using those strongly worded beliefs in their arguments. (No, using an alternate in the golden triangle while doing a gentle ref dive does not mean you are farm animal stupid and likely to die.)
 
I must be missing something:

1.) If you someone wasn't a deep decompression diver or a cave diver at the time the spirited and aggressive war was taking place, then none of this would be relevant to that diver.

2.) I've read those points, they seemed well thought out to me. I guess that certain people are still taking issue with the "strongly worded" part.

3.) I didn't see anything wrong with Dan's essay.It didn't have the tone of cramming anything down anyone's throat.
People are free to accept or reject what was being said there.

4.) I've never heard anyone being called "farm animal" stupid for NOT diving a DIR/GUE/NAUI Tech/HOG/hurt feeling rig (or whatever else people want to call it). Have you? Or are you referring to someone's forum post from some time in the past? Because, I've never heard any of that.
As for internet debates (past or present), I've read spirited comments from all sides.

Did GUE or a representative from GUE actually call someone farm animal stupid?
Just curious, really.
have you actually been called this, or overheard someone else being called this? over equipment configuration?

Sometimes it seems that there is a lot of (internet) "mock outrage" over some of this.......attempts to revive big flames from old smoldering embers.

I dive with a lot of people locally, all in different configurations.....it doesn't make a difference to me what people dive.
I also dive with some similarly trained dive buddies.

It's all good to me.....I just like diving.

I travel a bit, and I've never heard anyone expressing any negative comments.

I guess you just happened to run into a group of technical divers on a trip, that were still upset about someones internet comments from the past.

I guess if the old embers keep getting stirred up.....the old negative comments will always seem new.

I don't quite understand your comments about "it is not too late"....or...."it is not too late to do something about it."

It's not too late for what?
What are people supposed to DO?

You are making appeals for people to "do" something. Like what?
Write apologies? Be nice(r)??? (people already are, as has been mentioned in this thread).

Maybe it's not too late for people to let things go.:wink:

V/R,
-Mitch

*I'm not picking on your posts...I honestly don't understand what you are asking for.

Take care,
Mitch
 
As a related tangent.....
When George first began diving with me, he also dove with some of my other spearfishing friends, guys that were regulars on Frank Hammett's boat....Frank being the original "guerilla diver" :)
While there were certainly plenty of things George did not like about some of the diving practices of these guys...things he got most of them to change quite easily ( without effort on anyone's part)....George really liked how "strong" these divers were, and how they had the reflexes, the coordination, the learning potential and the true adventurer mentality and bullet proof nerves that George would look for in WKPP exploration team divers.....of course, they would need mentoring, but this was the kind of diver he wanted to "begin with".

George had a great time diving on dive trips on Frank's, to do the Hole in the Wall, and other high adventure sites, and he did this WITH his known buddies, and also tagging along , the good--but "not yet DIR" type spearfisherman.
He would NEVER talk down at them, and actually showed huge respect for what they could do. They would see some of the things George would do..and they would see how their spearfishing could benefit from it....and they would want to know more....
This was actually "MISSION ORIENTED" diving that they were doing, and George liked this, as I did.
The effect of George diving with this group, was that many spearfisherman switched to halcyon bp/wings or close equivalents, many got more streamlined, many began to learn buoyancy skills that previously had never even been thought about...Before, it was strength...then, it became finesse, but the strength was still there if it was ever needed.

The evolution of these divers would occur over a year or two....or more. They would see and gradually accomplish what they saw.
It was about getting more adventure, about having fun, and doing it better and safer..and often getting bigger or more fish and lobster :)

I know there can be snickering today by some DIR types, when they see a non-GUE/non-DIR diver that is NOT following the dead flat horizontal ascent proceedure, or that are not configured exactly the way we think they should be configured.....What George knew then, and many of us know now, is that some of the good, long time divers we see that are NOT DIR, are in fact, really good divers....

Many are in fact, much better and stronger divers than many divers that can appear like a posterchildren for perfect trim and gear, and for perfect following of every single DIR or GUE "rule" imaginable.

The very BEST REAL EXPLORATION DIVERS, may in fact not be the ones that try to be facing their buddies and maintaining near intimate contact every second of an hour long dive....What I mean by this, is that there are divers where this perfect buddy "interfacing", and perfect trims and posture, has become 100% of the "mission" they are on for every dive. This, versus, the exploration diver that actually HAS a mission to dive, AND manages to have excellent buddy skills and body positions throughout the dive, without having to think about this( it is just natural)...

So not too long ago, one of my GUE friends was talking about one of my non-DIR friends, that happens to be one of the STRONGEST DIVERS THAT LIVES TODAY....This guy will silt on a reef to shoot a fish ( with video or gun), mostly because his mission does not require any concern for the silting. His body posture is not always optimal, BUT, he can do things that even George or I would not have ever tried.

Is it fair to say that this diver I am talking about is a "mess"?
This would be the prevailing reaction for non-adherance to today's accepted GUE/DIR behaviors.
There are elements in this diver I speak of, that I would love to change....like when he is diving with me and silts an area I am filming in ( and gets an award winning shot himself :) )
But I have to ask myself, is it right for me or any of us, to call him a mess, when he is clearly a stronger diver than 99% of the top GUE or DIR divers--for a 150 foot or shallower dive in open ocean.

While I am at this, I would also say that... to me, the highest form of diving satisfaction, comes from seeing fantastic marine life, particularly in exciting areas like high current reefs and wrecks where the congregations become even more fantastic.
A high level skill to swim deep into a shipwreck, far away from all light or any marine life, actually seems foolish to me--there is nothing I want to see, nothing I want to accomplish so far deep inside, and certainly nothing I want video of.

The huge skill it takes to do the deep penetrations, is by and large, a useless skill for a recreational diver to contemplate---WHY would they ever need to do a deep penetration? There will always be far more life around the outside of the structure, or just inside in the area only limited wreck skills will easily allow. This gets back to hubris. As DIR's or GUE's, all of us need to cut this out. Most divers would never want to use the really advanced cave diving skills. And many of the best Cave Divers, would not be able to stay in a 4 man buddy team with a bunch of really good local Palm beach Spearfisherman--without the spearfisherman having to constantly wait for them, and potentially fail at their "mission" because of the ingrained practices of the Cave divers....like floating on the surface doing safety checks instead of doing a negative entry and fast drop..or , because the efficiency of the cave divers in the drift current universe is poor--Jet fins will work for 75% of the dive, maybe 90%..but the 10% to 25% they are too inefficient for, will mess up the dive for the team.

I think we need to think about what the objective is. I also think that when my ideas are seen by others as being better, they will want what I have. If they don't see my ideas or techniques/gear configs as better, and they have seen everything in context, then I need to ask myself why. Again, I think this goes to what the objective is.

Maybe if we became more pragmatic about what is important to most recreational divers, and what skills or ideas we would share with them, maybe with this "cherry picking" of DIR ideas for the recreational diver..maybe we would no longer come across as so annoying to other divers.

---------- Post Merged at 07:46 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:27 AM ----------

Some additional ideas.....
If you saw DIR III, one of the things George says in it, is that there is "NO SUCH THING AS A HIGHER LEVEL OF DIVER"....and by that he was trying to say that when we train to be a super cave diver or super tech diver, that does not make us BETTER DIVERS than a great recreational diver.....A great CAVE DIVER should be much better at Cave Diving than a great spearfisherman, and a great tech diver should be better at 250 foot deep diving than a good recreational diver. But when we are doing 60 to 100 foot deep dives, we don't have the right to feel superior to good recreational divers...The DIR message was not about showing you how you could act superior on a 90 foot dive, or with a bunch of recreational divers doing 60 to 100 foot deep dives. I think this is like a Pole Vaulter on a track team, who is really good at Pole Vaulting....He should not feel he is a better Track athlete than the Shot putter or the 440 guy....each has specialties, one specialty is not better or more important than the other. The spearfisherman, the lobster diver, the Cave diver, the tech diver, the videographer, the photographer, the shell collector... each has a specialty, and each can be very good at achieving their "mission". So enough about the Hubris.

On the other hand, DIR, and now GUE, has brought some fantastic new skill sets, many of which can have a great place in many forms of recreational diving. And I love how I can have a GUE fundies grad dive with us, and know from second number one underwater, that this diver knows what we want them to do, they always maintain excellent buddy awareness, they won't silt anything, and that they are not going to get hurt from a dive by some lack of dive education ( theirs is really complete). I think it is up to the DIR's and the GUE's, to take the real attitude George had in person, and to NOT talk down or think lesser thoughts about the good and the strong recreational divers that we will see on boats....and when we dive with them, have them see us doing the advanced GUE techniques and skills, in a manner where they can be seen to offer real benefits to the recreational diver...

When they see a GUE glide along through the wreck of the Mispah( a huge wreck that good recreational divers will penetrate due to the huge openings.... see it here
[video=youtube;vGB8XNq8QF0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGB8XNq8QF0&feature=share&list=UUsM5Za9Kc3 DbP7Qo3-Zmz9w[/video]
) and they see the finer techniques of moving around inside the wreck used by the GUE's, this won't be lost on a "good" recreational diver...the good ones will see this, and they will want this for themselves.
There are many advanced skills that we can show, and that will be "coveted" by good recreational divers if we keep the "down to earth attitude".
When we start acting like we have secret handshakes, and when we think there is something really special about us as divers, we will seem like jerks, and we will deserve the reputation some have heaped on us.

I know I have some responsibility for some poor wording in some of my articles or posts back in the nineties... but everything I do now, is about trying to show a better way. Whenever I can show some GUE stuff in the proper light...when it "just fits" to show it, and a good diver suddenly "wants it", then I am succeeding in being the DIR or GUE ambassador of Dive Ideas that I want to be.
 
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As I go through this forum, I constantly see remarks from non-DIR/GUE divers making some smart comments about "I am not doing it right (DIW) so I am going to die", or other comments about the people that subscribe to the DIR philosophy.

Re-reading the original post it seems I took it the wrong way, he's talking about non-DIR divers making comments to DIR divers. Regarding that if someone was getting serious about comments like that they can die as far away from me as I can get, especially if they are carrying a giant camera:wink:......I've seen enough coral kickers lately to last a lifetime.
 
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Dan, do you think that some of the misunderstanding of which you speak may be partly due to that deliberate attempt to transfer DIR ideas to the recreational community? As far as I can see, that deliberate attempt did not make clear that original cave diving focus. Let's take, for example, the essay you wrote back then on how DIR divers could make recreational divers better. As I read it, you seem to be calling on all DIR divers who are "stuck" (your term) diving with people whose gear is not configured the DIR way to use that opportunity to show why the DIR system is better. There is no hint in the essay that I can see that warns them not to quote George's comments or arguments that "were not EVER aimed at recreational divers."

It was only earlier this year that I heard the explanation you gave above. I wish that this difference between cave divers and recreational divers had been made more clear from the start. It is not too late.

John,
I just re-read this article you linked....I had actually thought you were referring to something more like one of my more "excitable" rec.scuba posts :)
In this particular one you reference, I am actually trying to get to REAL WORLD issues any of us can experience when we go out on a dive charter boat.
I have done a great deal of diving on charter boats all over South Florida. If you dive on charter boats often enough, and you don't show up with YOUR buddy( maybe your buddy got sick last minute, but you are signed up, whatever)....sooner or later you will be asked to dive with someone that is configured really badly.
What I am talking about has nothing to do with the golden Triangle, or with just not being DIR....In this essay, I was referring to a sort of "charicature" that unfortunately DOES show up on charter boats with some frequency...

You see them stand up from the bench on the boat, just prior to everyone jumping in....and you see their tank hanging a foot or more LOWER than you can imagine is even possible..... You see their pressure gauge is on a huge deluxe console, at the end of a huge high pressure hose so long that it drags on the floor of the dive boat, behind them as they waddle forward without balance. You see they are wearing an enormous big floppy BC--probably with 60 pounds of lift or more, and they are wearing huge weighting. You can not stop them from jumping in the water....You can't tell them they will die configured like this....Someone already sold them this gear, and convinced them this was the hot ticket.
What can you do?
One thing I might try, is to walk up next to them before we jump off, and friendly say..... " Hey, after we reach the bottom, and are a minute or so into the dive, there is something I want to show you.....I will swim up to you--point to my eyes and yours, and then you will know that I am about to show you something I think you will get a kick out of... I am going to show you a very cool thing, and you might want to try it after you see it.....I would be very friendly with this, and make it sound fun. There would be zero preachyness coming out of me.

So then near the bottom, a minute or two into the dive, as the horribly convoluted diver has settled down ( hopefully) and has some attention possible, I would swim up to them.
Just before I go for the eye contact, I would probably be wincing at the sight of them swimming head up and feet down at a 45 degree angle, with lots of air in the BC, and lots of weight to keep him on the bottom. As he kicks along furiously to stay mostly off the bottom, and struggles slightly to keep pace with the group of 8 divers( whatever), I get comfortably near him, and get eye contact.....When he is watching, I would show him perfect neutral bouyancy( from being a bit heavy so he sees me add air slightly), then look at him watching me, and point to my kick....In my case a great big frog kick with a 7 to 10 foot long glide, due to this being the size of glide I can get with my DiveR freedivng fins ( but I can get a nice big glide with jets alternatively, if that is what I am wearing).... What this diver will see will NOT look like anything he has ever noticed, and he will wonder how I can do such a tiny amount of work--just one single kick, and go so far forward, so easily....how I can glide more like a barracuda, than being like a big pickup truck you are trying to push up a driveway. There is a good chance he may see this, and process this, and there is even a chance he will try this himself...he may put some more air in his BC, and he may try a big frog kick.....If he does, he will be dismayed that he goes no where... I or you, would then flash him the OK sign, and glide effortlessly away from him toward the front of the group..( we are assuming he is NOT buddied to me or you :) If we did get this diver for our buddy, then we would be letting him see himself kick 10 kick cycles, to go as far as we can glide with a single kick. But we would stay very close to him, as we would be alternating between enjoying the underwater scenery, and keeping ourselves observant to notice any signs of an impending "event" for this diver, that we could pro-actively fix before it became seriously bad. Call it "doing penance" for not having planned our own Dive Buddy more effectively :) In any event, if this IS going to be our buddy, we have no choice other than doing this, or not diving. But I digress....
Later on, at the surface, the reaction I/we would hope for, would be him wanting to know the whys involved...why easy for us, hard for him...what can he do to get this advantage? What is the "trick". We can even tell him there is a "trick" to effortless diving. He IS going to want this, if he is processing what he saw at all.
Just an idea, and this is the issue I was referring to in the essay.... I would see this often in the late 90's, and I still see it on many boats today.
 
Re-reading the original post it seems I took it the wrong way, he's talking about non-DIR divers making comments to DIR divers. Regarding that if someone was getting serious about comments like that they can die as far away from me as I can get, especially if they are carrying a giant camera:wink:......I've seen enough coral kickers lately to last a lifetime.

Yes. I didn't mean to start a whole big discussion on this, but it has been informative for me.

No DIR/GUE divers I have meet has been anything other than nice. I read all these posts that were very hostile to DIR divers and I didn't understand it at the time. I only singled out George Irving, because during my research, pre-GUE primer and working with tech divers, I found his posts as very standoffish. I happened to read the Wikipedia article today about DIR and there is a lot of criticism about George in it.

I am sure he is just passionate about diving and doesn't want anyone to get hurt; a noble thing I applaud him on.

Jerrod
 
Yes. I didn't mean to start a whole big discussion on this, but it has been informative for me.

No DIR/GUE divers I have meet has been anything other than nice. I read all these posts that were very hostile to DIR divers and I didn't understand it at the time. I only singled out George Irving, because during my research, pre-GUE primer and working with tech divers, I found his posts as very standoffish. I happened to read the Wikipedia article today about DIR and there is a lot of criticism about George in it.

I am sure he is just passionate about diving and doesn't want anyone to get hurt; a noble thing I applaud him on.

Jerrod

Yes, Wiki has shown how little this WIKI system has to do with reality and history and real truth.... and how much it has to do with who can take control, and how easy it is to fictionalize key issues, then make this the new Wiki Reality.
Very sad really. They might as well have let Bill Rennaker write his version of what DIR was.
 
Dan,

That's with anything. It really doesn't matter what the truth is, just what you can get people to believe. Typically whoever has the biggest gun or billfold comes out as the winner.

Jerrod
 
My only personal contact with George was buying some gear from him, we exchanged a few mails about diving in general, he was nice and even answered my question as to why he gave up cave diving; which he didn't need to do. However, it's hard to believe that the attitude/ego/manner that people talk about from that time period is all myth, it's even pretty substantiated from the attitude shown on some of the training videos. But hey, he was who he was and diving was damn fortunate to have him. That said there were many people involved at that time and at that level but you don't see anywhere near the same anger toward them, I think because they were more modest and less vocal, without doubt George made himself the lightning rod:wink:
 
Not to start a flame war. I just wanted to post my observations. It seems like people are a bit reactionary and have never met these divers or only read something one or two a$$es have posted. (On a side note, George Irvine has a website with posts from various sites and he does come across as a total a$$).

Dear Jerrod,

IMHO it is far more than one or two asses that self-identify as DIR divers. In fact, there were enough that (I am a neophyte and have only Fundies - rec pass at that) I chose to unsubscribe myself from the DIR forum because I did not want to be associated with such asses, nor did I care to read about their ideas on diving. Your post inspired me to re-join, if only to complain.

You did choose a very comfortable, safe space in which to post your thread. I would likely have done the same to avoid trolls, but you are missing some diversity of opinion in posting in a DIR-only area. It is kind of like posting "I don't believe that everyone doesn't like Jesus" in a born-again forum.

Cheers,

Crush
 
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