what makes a diving agency a diving agency?

[Bob DBF]

Where the system breaks down is that students are rarely given adequate time and repetitions to really LEARN those procedures.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I believe that is the crux of the problem. And it is not just SCUBA, I see a tendency in the society as a whole to put an emphasis on how fast a thing can be done rather than how well it can be done.

Another point that should be made is that divers needed better water skills because of the gear available and more time was taken to insure the diver had a good chance to survive the inevitable equipment failure. During this "extra" time topics like risk assessment, gas planning, and how to expand your skills and limits without an instructor were discussed during the SI, since most divers then would not be taking another class. You can't make a better diver without taking the time to do it, then or now.



Bob
-------------------------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[boulderjohn]

In reference to the earlier comparison to driver training....

Driver training prepares divers to drive safely under the conditions in which they were trained. They are not taught to drive under all possible conditions. For example, the drivers in my area are not taught how to drive on the left side of the road in a car with the steering wheel on the right in case they ever drive in England, Australia, etc. They are not taught the unusual rules of the road they might encounter in case they drive some day in Argentina. To teach all of those things to people before there is a real chance they will encounter them is detrimental because of the learning concept called interference--learning all the stuff they don't need to know now interferes with their ability to learn the things they do need to know now.

I have completed a multiple of the total number of dives a relatively active diver will complete in a lifetime, and I have done so in a multiple of the number of locations. Yet, on only one day of my diving life have I dived in a situation where it was necessary for me to take tide tables into account. I would guess that 99% of the divers I certify will never have to take tides into account. If they ever do get into that situation, they can get that training, just as I did that day. In contrast, except for those I certify on trips, all the divers I certify do so at altitude. Consequently, they get a full briefing on why altitude matters and how to take it into account on their dives. Every one of the dives logged for their OW certification has depths adjusted for altitude. I assume that divers certified in the ocean will in contrast get no more than the warning in the course that adjustments need to be made for altitudes about 1,000 feet.

 

[endurodog]

I



You really believe that this is the case???


.

(In reference to my statement about students being told thier limits). Yes I do, it's even asked in questions for the PADI OW test/review.


I said % on all of my statements about diver accidents between now and the past. You can make a comparision by using the "per 1000 divers or 1000 dive comparision"

Ok DCBC or anyone thats saying training isn't safe enough because of lack of training time. Lets see what figures you have to say diving is not as safe or that more people are hurt or killed now as comparted to when the training was longer and tougher. Or all of these statements just because you feel that way.

 

[knotical]

Back to the OP’s original question:

what makes a diving agency a diving agency?

My answer: If it’s on my list. see: ScubaBoard - Scuba Diving Forum - Diving Social Network - knotical - Blogs

 

[endurodog]

Back to the OP’s original question:

My answer: If it’s on my list. see: ScubaBoard - Scuba Diving Forum - Diving Social Network - knotical - Blogs

Come on knotical we are 27 pages into a Scubaboard thread that brings up agencies. It's predestined to have the guys come out of the wood work to agency/training bash.

 

[Thalassamania]

(In reference to my statement about students being told thier limits). Yes I do, it's even asked in questions for the PADI OW test/review.

The "telling of limits" is so obtuse, general and unclear as to be all but useless to anyone except your defense attorney.

I said % on all of my statements about diver accidents between now and the past. You can make a comparision by using the "per 1000 divers or 1000 dive comparision"

There is no data in the recreational community that includes a denominator.

Ok DCBC or anyone thats saying training isn't safe enough because of lack of training time. Lets see what figures you have to say diving is not as safe or that more people are hurt or killed now as comparted to when the training was longer and tougher. Or all of these statements just because you feel that way.

If you back calculate the number of people that would have to be divers and the number of dives that would have to have been made to see if they are reasonable for a given level of risk you find that diving is, in fact, far from "safe." Do a search, I presented that sort of analysis several time in the past with comparisons to the safety of football, baseball and auto racing as I recall.

 

[endurodog]

The "telling of limits" is so obtuse, general and unclear as to be all but useless to anyone except your defense attorney.
There is no data in the recreational community that includes a denominator.

If you back calculate the number of people that would have to be divers and the number of dives that would have to have been made to see if they are reasonable for a given level of risk you find that diving is, in fact, far from "safe." Do a search, I presented that sort of analysis several time in the past with comparisons to the safety of football, baseball and auto racing as I recall.

Thal there is no doubt you and I have debated this over and over but you have no better figures, actually scratch that. You have zero figures to say that the present training is more accident prone than it was when classes were longer. There are figures on accident rates that show no significant increase even though you debate how valid they are they are still there.

Simple question are there any figures to back up the accusations that diver training is making the divers more accident prone or is just your gut feeling??????

No one is saying diving is safe, the statement was safe enough, 2 different things. And then it was used in reference to lack of training time that is being debated. No one has fallen into the Thal "safe" trap here.

 

[The Chairman]

The "telling of limits" is so obtuse, general and unclear as to be all but useless to anyone except your defense attorney.
There is no data in the recreational community that includes a denominator.

Is it? I remember the discussion from my OW class many years ago. I remember them being discussed by every instructor I have had the privilege of teaching with. Can they do better? Sure. BTW, when's the last time you audited an average Scuba Class?

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Is it? I remember the discussion from my OW class many years ago. I remember them being discussed by every instructor I have had the privilege of teaching with. Can they do better? Sure. BTW, when's the last time you audited an average Scuba Class?

What conclusion do you believe one would draw from auditing the average scuba class? Both Open Water and Advanced?


Thank you,
Mitch

 

[endurodog]

What conclusion do you believe one would draw from auditing the average scuba class? Both Open Water and Advanced?


Thank you,
Mitch

Each person would get there own take on it. Many here are under the wrong impression about what is being taught. The discussion at hand is a good point. If or if not limits are being taught. I can speak for PADI that limits are being taught, depth, tables, no fly times, ascent rates, altitude considerations are all part of the PADI OW course and are part of the knowledge review questions and test questions. Those are all very "limit" relevent topics and relate to safety. Because these topics are so ingrained in the system (printed materials students are required to complete) the only way a student could miss them is if the instructor was just handing out cards, that would not be on the agency but on the instructor. I don't have first hand knowledge about what is being taught at other agencies but assume that these things are taught there too, I could be wrong.