Perhaps it's time to roll this out once again.
AN OPEN LETTER TO NEW DIVERS ABOUT STAYING ALIVE « Doppler's Tech Diving Blog
AN OPEN LETTER TO NEW DIVERS ABOUT STAYING ALIVE « Doppler's Tech Diving Blog
A question about the devils eye/ear entrances
- Thread starter SWAMPY459
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smokin3000gt
Registered
Man, I've read this thread from first to last page and all I can say is this swamp character is the wrong combination of arrogant, ignorant, and stupid. I hate to be like that but it's obvious judging by the manner in which he takes (doesn't) advice and how he replies to EXPERIENCE and people trying to help him/save his life.
KUDOS to you guys that have offered to talk with, dive with, and teach him. Way to go above and beyond helping out a diving brother. Shame on him for being so blind and stubborn.
You don't want to spend $400 for cave training then don't dive caves. I don't think it gets much simpler then that. You obviously don't value your life much (apparently it's less than $400 ).
I hope to never end up with you or a guy like you on any dive boats around here. BTW if you guys do the dive without proper training and something happens to your dive buddy, I hope are able to live with yourself and don't be surprised if you're brought up on man slaughter charges for your blatant disregard for safety and training.
I wish ya the best but fear the worst.
KUDOS to you guys that have offered to talk with, dive with, and teach him. Way to go above and beyond helping out a diving brother. Shame on him for being so blind and stubborn.
You don't want to spend $400 for cave training then don't dive caves. I don't think it gets much simpler then that. You obviously don't value your life much (apparently it's less than $400 ).
I hope to never end up with you or a guy like you on any dive boats around here. BTW if you guys do the dive without proper training and something happens to your dive buddy, I hope are able to live with yourself and don't be surprised if you're brought up on man slaughter charges for your blatant disregard for safety and training.
I wish ya the best but fear the worst.
Just a thought, when was the last time you saw a cave diver course for $400? I haven't seen a reputable course that cheap in years.
I believe the $400 was referring to a cavern diver course, not a full cave circuit.
JamesK
Contributor
Even for a cavern course that is a good deal. Sure you can find cheaper, but if an instructor does not value his time, I sure as hell don't value it.
I think you misunderestimate me
[sic]Riddle me this:
Who is more reckless, ignorant and stupid? A diver who sees a cave, gets an idea in the middle of a dive, and goes in or a diver who sees a cave and has an idea to go in, goes home and starts pulling up maps and charts, videos of other people diving that particular cave and even posts on a forum to get the "lay of the land" from people who have been in that particular cave before, wades through all the useless replies like yours, gets the gems of good information about the cave, then armed with that information makes an informed decision whether or not to just go ahead and do it, or take a cavern class before doing it, or whether to do it at all?
No, it probably won't be me you read about drowning in the devils ear next month or next year, it will be the guy who is sitting around now thinking about something completely different and will have the same idea I did but instead of researching he will just do it.
I think you have to be careful in saying that an expensive course must be better than a cheap one, or that cost alone is a determining factor in quality. That's the logic by which ivy league schools went from pricey tuition to absolutely insane tuition starting in the mid 1980's. At some point you're just pricing the course high to *prove* it's great training. Fortunately, unlike Ivy league schools most cave instructors tend to be pretty reasonable and offer great value for the money.
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I don't regard $400 for Cavern as being out of line, and it's like Advanced Nitrox/Deco Procedures in terms of being one of the best training values around as most of the fundamental skills are taught and acquired at the cavern level. If anything, I'd argue it's sort of a loss leader for instructors as the amount of work done prior to, in, and after class can be huge if the diver has no technical diving background, or worse, a poor one with lots of bad habits.
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I took the non ivy league NACD training route and I paid $800 for a 4 day combination Cavern and Intro to Cave class and another $800 for the (full) Cave class, once the cert card fees were included. AN/DP was also $400 and I am a pretty firm believer in that training for a full cave level diver doing significant deco, especially if you can get it in a cave environment. In my case I took the course years prior to cave training but repeated the course in a cave environment in part as the way it was taught also covered stage bottle management, planning and procedures in a cave.
So...roughly $2,000 in course fees and 10 days of training to go from zero through full cave with deco procedures. That does not include dive site entry fees, cost of fills, lodging and travel expenses, so the final total is probably twice that.
In terms of just tuition though, it's probably $1500 less in total than the Fundies, Cave 1, Cave 2 route - but normoxic trimix cost me another $1250, so it's basically a wash.
Cave DPV was the same $400 ish cost with cert fees and normoxic trimix was about $1250 after splitting room and travel expenses and was really a deal compared to what some folks pay, so another $1,650 in fees and another $1,000 or so in gas, entrance fees, travel and lodging expenses.
So maybe $7,000 total including Cave DPV and normoxic trimix. If I was a local zip code diver, the training costs would be half that amount.
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I don't regard $400 for Cavern as being out of line, and it's like Advanced Nitrox/Deco Procedures in terms of being one of the best training values around as most of the fundamental skills are taught and acquired at the cavern level. If anything, I'd argue it's sort of a loss leader for instructors as the amount of work done prior to, in, and after class can be huge if the diver has no technical diving background, or worse, a poor one with lots of bad habits.
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I took the non ivy league NACD training route and I paid $800 for a 4 day combination Cavern and Intro to Cave class and another $800 for the (full) Cave class, once the cert card fees were included. AN/DP was also $400 and I am a pretty firm believer in that training for a full cave level diver doing significant deco, especially if you can get it in a cave environment. In my case I took the course years prior to cave training but repeated the course in a cave environment in part as the way it was taught also covered stage bottle management, planning and procedures in a cave.
So...roughly $2,000 in course fees and 10 days of training to go from zero through full cave with deco procedures. That does not include dive site entry fees, cost of fills, lodging and travel expenses, so the final total is probably twice that.
In terms of just tuition though, it's probably $1500 less in total than the Fundies, Cave 1, Cave 2 route - but normoxic trimix cost me another $1250, so it's basically a wash.
Cave DPV was the same $400 ish cost with cert fees and normoxic trimix was about $1250 after splitting room and travel expenses and was really a deal compared to what some folks pay, so another $1,650 in fees and another $1,000 or so in gas, entrance fees, travel and lodging expenses.
So maybe $7,000 total including Cave DPV and normoxic trimix. If I was a local zip code diver, the training costs would be half that amount.
JamesK
Contributor
DA, you are right, but shopping for a bargain basement price is not a good idea either. Interview instructors. Talk to everyone you can. Then make your decision. Cost should not play in to it. However I still stand by my statement of if an instructor does not value their time, I do not value it. Of course that is a generalization though.
Hi Swampy,
I admire your adventurous spirit but hopefully you will listen to the voices of caution in this thread. You've received much great advice from many cave divers I highly respect. Divers who have been in places that you can probably not imagine and have safely made it out to share their stories.
I'm pretty new to cave diving, was certified in 2010 and have only logged 200+ cave dives, mostly in Mx. Have spent my last two trips to the Fla Caves working with flow in the mouth of Ginnie, doing the exact dive your are suggesting & kicking a little farther back in the cave. I'm a full cave diver and agree with others that it's a challenging environment to safely dive. So will highlight geographic details others have shared that are very relevant to your question and add my 2 cents.
The flow can be quite strong with the potential to wedge you into cracks, tangle you in line, and/or build up dangerous CO2 levels from exertion. Often several divers run line down into the Ear leaving a number of lines in the high flow areas to navigate without entanglement. This poses a challenging situation even to experienced divers. Safely running/retrieving a reel/line in the same high flow environment takes experience.
Very true.
Very true and as others have said, navigation isn't entirely straightforward, there are side passages where a diver can easily get lost.
An accident, by definition, is never planned. I would assume that few OW divers who kick into a cave, without cave training, expect to die in there. But we hear so many sad stories of their needless & tragic deaths.
There many things in life, that while may be legal, are not the most intelligent to do. Guess that's why we have the "Darwin Awards" - Google them if you are unfamiliar.
I was a technical rock climber for many years, and in that sport we would have never made all this effort to try to convince someone to avoid great risk. A few of us would lay out the clear facts & cautions. If that climber heard the risks, AND thought him/herself more intelligent than those with much more experience, AND still wanted to tempt fate... Well, (shrug) as others have suggested -- the gene pool just became a bit cleaner.
If proper attention is given to safety, the caves are a really amazing dive environment. Please learn about the risks from a certified instructor before getting yourself into trouble that you don't know is there, or find a different hobby.
Safe travels Swampy.
I admire your adventurous spirit but hopefully you will listen to the voices of caution in this thread. You've received much great advice from many cave divers I highly respect. Divers who have been in places that you can probably not imagine and have safely made it out to share their stories.
I'm pretty new to cave diving, was certified in 2010 and have only logged 200+ cave dives, mostly in Mx. Have spent my last two trips to the Fla Caves working with flow in the mouth of Ginnie, doing the exact dive your are suggesting & kicking a little farther back in the cave. I'm a full cave diver and agree with others that it's a challenging environment to safely dive. So will highlight geographic details others have shared that are very relevant to your question and add my 2 cents.
The flow can be quite strong with the potential to wedge you into cracks, tangle you in line, and/or build up dangerous CO2 levels from exertion. Often several divers run line down into the Ear leaving a number of lines in the high flow areas to navigate without entanglement. This poses a challenging situation even to experienced divers. Safely running/retrieving a reel/line in the same high flow environment takes experience.
Very true.
Very true and as others have said, navigation isn't entirely straightforward, there are side passages where a diver can easily get lost.
An accident, by definition, is never planned. I would assume that few OW divers who kick into a cave, without cave training, expect to die in there. But we hear so many sad stories of their needless & tragic deaths.
There many things in life, that while may be legal, are not the most intelligent to do. Guess that's why we have the "Darwin Awards" - Google them if you are unfamiliar
. I was a technical rock climber for many years, and in that sport we would have never made all this effort to try to convince someone to avoid great risk. A few of us would lay out the clear facts & cautions. If that climber heard the risks, AND thought him/herself more intelligent than those with much more experience, AND still wanted to tempt fate... Well, (shrug) as others have suggested -- the gene pool just became a bit cleaner
.If proper attention is given to safety, the caves are a really amazing dive environment. Please learn about the risks from a certified instructor before getting yourself into trouble that you don't know is there, or find a different hobby.
Safe travels Swampy.
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