To the Open Water Divers in the cave at Ginnie Springs today...

[TreyR]

Do we have an exact count on the number of Shirley's? I've only met one she seemed pleasant enough.

 

[JamesK]

Do we have an exact count on the number of Shirley's? I've only met one she seemed pleasant enough.

I don't think anyone knows. I just don't want to let non cave trained Shirley in a cave, or worse yet try to pull cave trained Shirley out!

 

[fnfalman]

Who's going go take their light away? Ya better watch out. Those OWs could start pulling their 6" pigstickers.

(OK, I've probably milked that enough)

Good thing that it wasn't mine or I would have racked up a knife kill notch on my tank.

 

[Superlyte27]

Pfft, I've got the super secret experimental prototype not even open to the navy seals RADAR implemented. Your knife doesn't stand a chance.

James can you imagine if this technology got out? Think of the ramifications if some nefarious person got a hold of the RADAR i'm currently testing. Holy Crap...

At any rate. I don't care anymore. I'm going to cave dive as long as my knees, back and mind will allow me. The dumb bastards willing to kill themselves are welcome to it. I'm not going to literally lose sleep about people too dumb to save themselves. You'll never see another post from me about this subject. Why care about a goober if the goober doesn't care about himself. It's a waste of energy and worry.

Honestly, I can't believe it mattered to me one way or another whether a person I would never want to be friends with anyway got killed in a cave. Foolishness I say.

 

[NAM001]

It is the same thing. The behavior exhibited allowed a 3rd person to draw a conclusion. in the example given the lack of training conclusion was made and an attempt to persuade an OW from entering the cave while on the surface. In my conclusion the skills and equipment displayed drew the same conclusion. The only difference was the timing of the intervention. Many would not say anything openly but most would comment in private that "there goes an accident waiting to happen" I most likely would not attempt any physical action to prevent a penetraton beyond pointing to the reeper,,, as intervention at that point could cause a misshap as opposed to preventing one. Could one proove beyond doubt that the light did or did not belong to them. NO not beyond the 99.9% probability but as stated knowing the other divers int he area ,,, you know the light would not have be one of the known divers. Add to the equation that The one posting the flashlight issue post has been known to cave dive 4-5 days a week when available. So when he says he knows the other divers at the spring then i for one believe him. Thus when you have a single pair of odd balls so to speek at the site and a piece of equipment that no one else would use..... It probably safe to assume that it came from the odd balls.

It isn't the same thing, at all, and you know it. In one example, the diver is directly observed. In the other, he is not. In the one, there is proof, in the other there is no proof, only speculation.

 

[Paladin]

It is the same thing. The behavior exhibited allowed a 3rd person to draw a conclusion. in the example given the lack of training conclusion was made and an attempt to persuade an OW from entering the cave while on the surface. In my conclusion the skills and equipment displayed drew the same conclusion. The only difference was the timing of the intervention. Many would not say anything openly but most would comment in private that "there goes an accident waiting to happen" I most likely would not attempt any physical action to prevent a penetraton beyond pointing to the reeper,,, as intervention at that point could cause a misshap as opposed to preventing one. Could one proove beyond doubt that the light did or did not belong to them. NO not beyond the 99.9% probability but as stated knowing the other divers int he area ,,, you know the light would not have be one of the known divers. Add to the equation that The one posting the flashlight issue post has been known to cave dive 4-5 days a week when available. So when he says he knows the other divers at the spring then i for one believe him. Thus when you have a single pair of odd balls so to speek at the site and a piece of equipment that no one else would use..... It probably safe to assume that it came from the odd balls.

The operative word here is "conclusion," a conclusion derived from speculation, not proof. The two cases are not the same. As I stated before, in one instance the person was observed by a witness and in the other case, no one was actually seen doing anything.

Please bear in mind that I am merely playing Devil's Advocate to stimulate the conversation. I in no way advocate deep penetration of underwater caves by the untrained. However, both sides of any issue should be explored.

 

[NAM001]

Just because a single tank is worn I could not agree with you more. Most people would agree that you cant tell very well about a persons qualificatons by thier dress, but you can tell a lot about thier lack of qulaification. I am certed for cavern but not cave. You would not be able to tell that from my rig. I would do a cavern in a single tank but not a cave. There will always be the as you put it the self appointed police, around. And like many other situations " good intent , poor exicution" The normal person would not atempt to intervien on a single clue , but if the gut says this has the makng of an accident most would pay close attention and then stop for an inprompto chat to determine intent and offer some well meant advice. Which is what sounds like what happened here. The point of contention seems to be that of proof the light belonged the the OW's. I will say that from what little sxposure to the springs i have had,,, I have never seen a trained caver with a cheapo light head into the relm.

Please keep in mind that some agencies allow Cavern and Intro in single tanks. Not every diver in a single tank is OW. Sadly, some legitimate cavern divers have been run out of caverns recently because of some overzealous self-appointed cave police.

---------- Post added February 26th, 2013 at 05:01 PM ----------

Please understand that I understand that. Those that may not would take from your comment that any intervention would be inappropriate because you as yet have no proof that a problem will occure. Leaving the only action to be taken is talking bout what went wrong after the incident. It would be my position that we all have some duty to prevent incidents short of physical restraint. Most all of us will welcome , even reluctantly, the observation of another if it will make our dive safer. I cant save you from yourself,,, but i can give you the information for you to make an informed decision. Which all leads into "YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU DONT KNOW"

One last comment. In the area referenced one is hard pressed to find OW dive spots. This tends to force many (with limited finances) to push the limits of thier training. I think that one reference was made to "doing visual jumps in the cave" I have donte a lot of things in my time but i will never do a visual jump of 5' or 50' because the jump is not the problem , the location of the jump spot is when you exit. Its that second caveat that is the ***biter. Without exposure through proper training you will never think of that till you feel teeth.

The operative word here is "conclusion," a conclusion derived from speculation, not proof. The two cases are not the same. As I stated before, in one instance the person was observed by a witness and in the other case, no one was actually seen doing anything.

Please bear in mind that I am merely playing Devil's Advocate to stimulate the conversation. I in no way advocate deep penetration of underwater caves by the untrained. However, both sides of any issue should be explored.

 

[RichmondKYdiver]

We waited for the two cavers to finish their deco in The Eye, as in exiting divers have the right of way, then dropped in only to have this group of silt kickers drop in, literally, on top of us kicking us and most importantly, the two run lines. Yes, one of them did get a leg grabbed as he/she dropped on top of my team member. [video=youtube_share;rEIgZ0bMFXY]http://youtu.be/rEIgZ0bMFXY[/video]

 

[j2s]

Not even us yankee transplants.

The only legitimate use for instant grits is for screaming kids - who have no sense of taste anyhow.

Give 'screaming kid' a Red Bull and a Candy bar.......It's fun to watch them burn up on reentry ;O !!!!

 

[chillyinCanada]

Paladin, what we have here is a case of circumstancial evidence . . . or perhaps even preponderance of evidence.