Just for laughs...

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

You have to understand the situation in Germany now:
We do not have experienced sidemount instructors!
A few are emerging, but that should contradict calling them 'experienced', yet.

The thing is that if they are not doing it correctly then they certainly shouldn't be instructing it yet. It's fine to be inexperienced, but at least doing it within the norms of side mount. It's another to instruct an obviously completely wrong approach.

There may be no conformity to side mount yet, but a quick search on youtube will yield a number of D-ring clipped side mount attempts with said divers clearly being uncomfortable and awkward. (Not all from Germany btw). This is plain horrendous. My buddy arrives like that for a dive and we are not even getting wet because I know I'm going to spend my dive babysitting an off balance and struggling diver.

Andy stuck a link to videos of his students on the thread. The students are clearly not at exhibition level yet (probably why they are students), but it takes a keen eye to spot some of the issues. My wife (with 35 dives to her name) was able to point out the awkwardness of some of the "side mount" on youtube. Therein lies a big problem that we should not just ignore into non-existence.

 

[Razorista]

I did not want to criticize DevonDiver in any way.

He could not have been able to find out the background details on a FB s**tstorm.
(I do not even really know if we are talking about the same video, I only recognize the edited picture)

He is certainly right to post videos that show 'bad practice'.
I hate it also in our own forum to only talk politely about anything you find on youtube.
There are many good examples of videos that teach by showing how not to do it - even if they where never intended that way.

The main problem everywhere seem to be that people prefer making 'OMfG-posts' instead of really talking about the problems they see and how to solve them.

 

[DevonDiver]

The main problem everywhere seem to be that people prefer making 'OMfG-posts' instead of really talking about the problems they see and how to solve them.

I do agree. It is sad the video was pulled, because this curtailed any chance of analysis or constructive criticism through debate in the thread. I hadn't predicted the video would be pulled when I posted this thread - I had hoped for the video to identify problems, for educational value, with members of this sidemount forum contributing positively in that respect.

Again, there is a big difference between videos featuring students in training (not a finished product) and those showing instructors/instructor-trainers. The expected skill and knowledge level of that later could reasonably be expected to show some degree of exhibition-level 'mastery'.

Many instructors/clubs etc post videos showing their diver-level students in training. These are often posted for the enjoyment of the student's themselves, for social sharing etc, and/or to give prospective students an opportunity to inspect the nature and level of the training they might receive if they do that course. Bear in mind that a 'basic' sidemount course for the major scuba agencies is only 2-days/4-dives. That is far too little in-water time to reasonably expect 'exhibition quality' skill development. It should, however, provide solid foundations and a 'road-map' to further post-graduation self-development for that student.

There is a big difference between student-course videos and 'exhibition' videos. My videos are shot with a head-mounted Go-Pro. The primary purpose of that is to provide students with feedback video for their own critique - it is a training aid. I try to sacrifice a little personal time after the course to make them a 'momento' video of the highlights. It takes a long time to edit down 4-5 hours of course footage into a 10-15 video. On the other hand... if (ever) I was to bother making a dedicated 'exhibition' video, then it would be shot be a dedicated videographer, under optimal conditions...and there would be a multitude of 'takes', from which I would select the most pristine and masterful examples. I have never done that... in my videos, what you see is what you get... warts and all. It's realistic. I'll be honest though, I don't show the 'bloopers' in my videos... I wish I could, but my students wouldn't thank me for it (but many thank me for not doing that! LOL). Yes.. of course there are bloopers... it's training, after all.

Personally, I wouldn't go to Youtube and level criticism at students. This is where diplomatic constructive criticism and advice is most beneficial. That said, there will always be a few people who take the slightest offense to constructive criticism/advice. Personally, I welcome constructive criticism...and encourage my students to do the same. It's the right mindset for development IMHO. When I look at students in training, either in real-life or in videos, I tend to look at the foundations they are being given. The core understanding that can enable them to develop properly post-course. We all (should) know the real learning starts after graduation. What shocked me in the video on this thread was the lack of those proper foundations...

There is a difference with instructor videos. I don't see why they should be treated the same. Instructors take money for what they provide. If they aren't making a reasonable effort to provide a good product/training, deviating substantially below the 'norm' of community expectations,... then they should be identified as such. Making stuff up, not even bothering to get decent training, ignoring what the rest of the community is doing.. or even not bothering to conduct the briefest research on the subject... and then selling it as something else (sidemount) is a scam, a rip-off, a fraud.

Tiki_bill seems to think that there should be some form of 'instructor fraternity', whereby we don't 'snitch' on our fellow instructors. He seems quite apoplectic about that. I guess I should be careful.. he comes from mob-town Chicago and thinks I'm a 'snitch'.... having broken some sort of 'code'. I don't want to end up diving in a concrete BCD. LMAO..

---------- Post added December 11th, 2013 at 01:00 PM ----------

The thing is that if they are not doing it correctly then they certainly shouldn't be instructing it yet.

Yes, because we're not all of Stark calibre..

 

[DevonDiver]

He could not have been able to find out the background details on a FB s**tstorm.
(I do not even really know if we are talking about the same video, I only recognize the edited picture)

This video was just posted (re-posted?) via Facebook. It seems to be the same people (from memory?).



In this video some are using SMS100 (none were in the first video posted), but others are still using unrestrained BP&W (see at 1:25).

They are using bolt-snap/choker to connect the top of the cylinders, but no bungee to allow proper trimming (see at 1:40)... even though the SMS100 (at least) do have bungee on them.

Hose management and regulator attachment is 'confused' in all examples.

To be fair, the video title does say this was 2011, but the video still exists as an endorsement in 2014... It IS, however, describes as "a course" (not a play-around/intro/familiarization)..

This is what was alleged on FB:

 

[gcarter]

Having seen that video, in the absence of any commentary, I would not have questioned equipment or technique as someone with no experience in other than single tank rec diving.

 

[DevonDiver]

In case the video does get pulled, for the sake of discussion, here are some screen-shots:

 

[gcarter]

In case the video does get pulled, for the sake of discussion, here are some screen-shots:

View attachment 173126View attachment 173127View attachment 173128View attachment 173129View attachment 173130View attachment 173131View attachment 173132

Even looking at those, I have no idea what is "normal" for sidemount.

 

[DevonDiver]

From what I know, the video the photo is from was made to remember the instructors own first experiences with sidemount at an indoor location in Europe.
They where among the first to try this in Germany (OW-Sidemount) and developed their course month after the video..The video was made late 2010 / early 2011 - so it is quite old, actually - you should expect them to have gained some experience since.

This other video seems to originate from the same group/organization. It is much more contemporary (July 2013).

To be honest, I don't see signs of any significant evolution in their approach to sidemount. There is, at least, no unrestrained BP&W being used...

My point being - weak initial foundations and short-cut introductions amongst the instructor/instructor-trainer cadre are much harder to resolve, than if it was done right (with research and seeking external training for best practices) from the outset..



Again, if the video is pulled,... for discussion, here are screenshots..

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I'm not a side mount diver, although I do follow the threads occasionally. I thinks it's an interesting development in diving, and worth following.

As for people giving Devon Diver crap for posting a video, and making fun of it.....get over it.

Maybe he was right to do so.
It IS a little ridiculous to see poorly skilled "instructors" jumping on the bandwagon. Maybe they should be made fun of a little bit.

Get your $hit together, before you step out and try and "teach" others how to do something......and then post videos of your teaching.

I don't know Andy, but it's clear from his posts on side mount diving....that he cares about it, and isn't in it for a quick buck. If I were ever interested in side mount diving.....I'd take a trip and get some instruction from Andy.

If I were him, I'd be a little pissed to see "instructors"......posting videos of side mount, that wasn't a good representation of it at all......especially when Andy is one of the enthusiasts that are out trying to develop and promote it. He seems to be one of the more active proponents of side mount diving,and certainly has plenty of very helpful posts about sidemount, for anyone interested in learning more.

Stop crying....why all the fake "butt hurt" over Mean 'ol Andy posting videos and poking fun at "side mount instructors" that don't appear to be very skilled at all, and trying to represent.

The only annoying thing about Andy's video post.....is all of the fake "hurt feelings" about it.

Are you really THAT upset over Andy's posting of these videos??

You've got to be kidding me.

 

[Ragnar]

Ok, I have to ask, of all the sidemount training going on what percentage of people do you think will actually dive in a restriction requiring it? Andy, of course I know you do, but for all the others they'll just be diving a system that's less than optimal from a gas sharing etc standpoint.