Mattf.
Registered
A man has got to know his limitations. Really, anything beyond that is just additional commentary on this incident.
Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL
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The Chairman
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Get me their email addresses and I can see.
lv2dive
Formerly known as KatePNAtl
PfcAJ
Contributor
Such a cliche thing to say following a cave fatality. I think this little phrase pops up at least once in every single accident thread.
And it's wrong.
Perhaps the the lesson to be learned here is to not passively support unqualified divers making excursions to caves by turning a blind eye. Or not to lend them gear. Or maybe it's necessary to tell shop owners that a particular diver is insanely unsafe. Maybe the lesson here is that when a shop TELLS OW DIVERS HOW TO ACCESS ONE OF THE MOST UNFORGIVING CAVES IN THE AREA, agencies, instructors, and patrons should stop supporting them.
People are going to make mistakes. And be reckless. And even sometimes drown. But facilitating it? That's a real shame. And it looks like that's what's happened here.
Never have to question what you write, John, but if it were that easy, I'd be out of a job...
I read NWGratefulDiver as saying that we won't learn anything from this accident. I would hope that what you said you already knew, so did you learn it from this accident?
Sure this accident underscores huge messages but is it learning? I hope not.
Once in a while an accident reveals an obscure failure mode that is eye opening to at least some divers, then we learn something. In this case the path taken is so far from appropriate by so many with a result so predictable that me can only shake our heads and pray.
For anyone gettng sloppy in their dive thinking it's a good wake-up call.
Pete
PfcAJ
Contributor
If everyone already "knows" it then why does this type of thing keep happening (Joe and Yessic immediately come to mind)? Perhaps this is a time for someone's eyes to be opened to something they've been doing, and this will change their view. A lesson, of you will.
Assuming everyone has the same knowledge as you is a bad move.
pete, you allude to "lessons" manifesting themselves at a failure
mode previously unknown. This example is of a failure not of gear, but of people. Facilitating dives like this is a failure. And it needs to be corrected before we have to see another news article like this one.
Assuming everyone has the same knowledge as you is a bad move.
pete, you allude to "lessons" manifesting themselves at a failure
mode previously unknown. This example is of a failure not of gear, but of people. Facilitating dives like this is a failure. And it needs to be corrected before we have to see another news article like this one.
I haven't read this whole thread, but since I'm familiar with many of you posting someone may have mentioned this already. I apologize if that is the case.
Thinking about a logical reason (if there was one) why a father would place his son at risk like this, only two things seem to make sense to me:
1. The father had poor open water instruction and believed he could do a better job teaching his son to dive.
2. The father was arrogant enough to believe that he was capable of making this dive and going in "just a little bit" was okay. Perhaps the thought that his kid could brag that he did Eagle's Nest before he even had an OW card seemed very cool at the time?
I have met divers who thought they were better than their instructor and I've met divers who were arrogant. A couple of these became names in the news.
Thinking about a logical reason (if there was one) why a father would place his son at risk like this, only two things seem to make sense to me:
1. The father had poor open water instruction and believed he could do a better job teaching his son to dive.
2. The father was arrogant enough to believe that he was capable of making this dive and going in "just a little bit" was okay. Perhaps the thought that his kid could brag that he did Eagle's Nest before he even had an OW card seemed very cool at the time?
I have met divers who thought they were better than their instructor and I've met divers who were arrogant. A couple of these became names in the news.
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Maybe this comes down to semantics because I agree with what you are saying.
I don't see it as learning a darned thing however. Now, I do see it as a call for change. But, for the life of me in a sport that is essentialy based on individuals (not leagues or even teams) how to keep (unkind terms withheld) individuals from undertaking these sorts of dives is a mystery to me.
Even in a society that tries to control alchohol AND driving the drunken driving situation is a huge problem. How can we expect to ever get universal recognition that diving, let alone in a cave is serious stuff that needs to be done the right way, by the right people with the right trianing and the right equipment in an activity where the only gate is possibly being asked for a C-card when getting a cylinder filled?
The reality is this will not end and all one can do is their best intervention if they find themseves between a fool, and their destiny.
Pete
I'm reminded of a time years ago where there was a story on the news that was the equivalent of "an insane man stripped naked and ran down the street with his hair on fire."
My wife asked "Why would he do that?"
BECAUSE HE'S INSANE!
Trying to analyze what when wrong, where, gear configuration, dive profile, available gas supply, etc is just silly. The underlying issue is some sort of obvious issue the father had - call it mental, emotional, psychological, psychosocial, what have you - that was in evidence at least ten years before he ever got into diving. There was a clear pattern of behavior - if based only on the incidents for which he was arrested and/or convicted - that this guy was a danger to himself and others. I have no doubt that if this guy took up golf, he would have managed to get himself and his son killed in "a golf accident" somehow.
I agree with PfcAJ's observation that, perhaps what can be learned here is that allowing/enabling stupid people to be stupid has consequences. Apparently, there were plenty of people who were no doubt aware of this guy's criminal history and poor judgement... who also knew that he was putting his minor child's life in mortal danger on a regular basis. And they did nothing. The "best friend" who said he often waited on the EN dock fearing the would not return? Whoever this recovery diver Brooks is, who lent him gear while telling him "one day they're Ginna call me to recover your body? The fiancé who said he had "respect for the danger" of cave diving? Is it possible that they were the only three people who knew what was going on?
I'm traveling, so don't have access to any of my NACD course materials, but am wondering if NACD, NSS-CDS or other cave agencies have a "Statement of a Understanding" or similar that certified divers must sign. I recall from my PADI OW course that one of the things I agreed to when I signed the PADI statement was to "Deny use of my equipment to non-certified divers." I vaguely recall my NACD cert card or materials indicating that I agreed to something to the effect that I would not take non-cave certified divers into caves.
If a cave diver's certifying agency has such an agreement, what are the implications if they knowingly lent a non-cave-certified gear and tacitly condoned their cave diving? (Of course I think I know the answer...).
My wife asked "Why would he do that?"
BECAUSE HE'S INSANE!
Trying to analyze what when wrong, where, gear configuration, dive profile, available gas supply, etc is just silly. The underlying issue is some sort of obvious issue the father had - call it mental, emotional, psychological, psychosocial, what have you - that was in evidence at least ten years before he ever got into diving. There was a clear pattern of behavior - if based only on the incidents for which he was arrested and/or convicted - that this guy was a danger to himself and others. I have no doubt that if this guy took up golf, he would have managed to get himself and his son killed in "a golf accident" somehow.
I agree with PfcAJ's observation that, perhaps what can be learned here is that allowing/enabling stupid people to be stupid has consequences. Apparently, there were plenty of people who were no doubt aware of this guy's criminal history and poor judgement... who also knew that he was putting his minor child's life in mortal danger on a regular basis. And they did nothing. The "best friend" who said he often waited on the EN dock fearing the would not return? Whoever this recovery diver Brooks is, who lent him gear while telling him "one day they're Ginna call me to recover your body? The fiancé who said he had "respect for the danger" of cave diving? Is it possible that they were the only three people who knew what was going on?
I'm traveling, so don't have access to any of my NACD course materials, but am wondering if NACD, NSS-CDS or other cave agencies have a "Statement of a Understanding" or similar that certified divers must sign. I recall from my PADI OW course that one of the things I agreed to when I signed the PADI statement was to "Deny use of my equipment to non-certified divers." I vaguely recall my NACD cert card or materials indicating that I agreed to something to the effect that I would not take non-cave certified divers into caves.
If a cave diver's certifying agency has such an agreement, what are the implications if they knowingly lent a non-cave-certified gear and tacitly condoned their cave diving? (Of course I think I know the answer...).
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