Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[grey2112]

Since she is obviously a keen student, i think both of you should try intro to cave, or intro to tech. She'll love the challenge and who knows how far up the tech food chain you can go?

She was halfway through her OW course when it was discovered that her paraesophageal hernia is a contraindication to diving - until we get it repaired (still being debated) she can't dive

 

[SandyRobinson]

A.) ... they were both posting about their exploits - including pictures - on FaceBook and cave diving forums.

Can you tell us what cave diving forums that Spivey and Sanchez were posting on. I know Sanchez posted a few condition reports on CaveAtlas but the posts give no indication of his age or experience. Also, are you aware of any cave divers who were FaceBook friends with the two?

Thanks for your help.

 

[stuck]

our team was called out for the recovery effort but was cancelled before we deployed as I don't believe Hernando county SO has a active underwater recovery team anymore. As in most cave related incidents you guys know about as much or more info on the incident unless there is some criminal investigation going on in relation. I have been in marine law enforcement for 23 years and been a recovery diver for 17. I have never ask for a cert card for any aspect in diving. I have stopped numerous idiots from doing things when I was present, yes when I was present. We cannot follow everyone around the woods and water and stop every bad decisions and were not the thought police. We respond after the fact and try to make since of what happened. People will drown again in many of the places I and other officers work every day. Hell a lady drowned 6 boats away from me and rafted up with 30 boats once in the Blue Waters. she was however revived by a off duty firefighter. For the most part the dive community here especially the legit cave divers are great as is well known on this forum. it would be virtually impossible to check in at every cave, spring, river, cavern, phosphate pit and lake and pull cards especially with no enforcement law on diving other than trespassing. We don't need more new laws and we don't need to close public places like the eagle as the solution for isolated incidents such as this.
The child endangerment issue would be the way I would have called him out on the 25th as well as possibly finding some State land regulation on improper or dangerous activity not otherwise regulated. It would have stopped that dive at that location for that day. The child endangerment charges are usually incurred after the incident, like dui or cooking meth in the kids room.

 

[gianaameri]

Thank you for responding. I disagree that the signs, education, training, and other work that the cave diving agencies have done over the years is not working. If you look at the current death rates per cave dive and compare that to a few decades ago it is a very different picture. These agencies also have limited resources and limited legal power. They can't be the SCUBA police for all of the thousands of caves in Florida. As far as the license suggestion, in this country a "non-government issued license" is basically the same thing as a c-card. You also can't expect the police to help you enforce a non-government license/permit. I'm not saying your ideas don't have some merit and I do wish that more could be done. I'm just not sure it is feasible to defend every dive site in Florida from people with such willful disregard for rules and even for basic morality. As an example, I would point out the father's criminal history. There are strict laws against drunk driving, but that didn't stop him from killing a pedestrian and driving away from the scene.

So, tell me why a "license" system as already in place elsewhere to protect caves and cave divers (i.e. a simple web based system which can be largely automated and is cheap, but effective) is something which "Cave Organizations" can't put in place to [further] protect caves and [further] reduce risk/fatalities (in addition to putting up the warning signs which, provocatively I think, a CNN journalist said "not every single diver reads... so we have this tragedy...")? - CNN here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10104002198688593

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The NSS-CDS, NACD, IUCRR... should realise that the current attitude at the top, middle, and bottom and the current system in place of displaying warning signs is NOT working.

I have put forward a suggestion in a post long ago and lost somewhere in this thread, and that is a "license" system, web based (non-governmental self-regulatory system run by "Cave Associations"), where the diver before diving a cave has to fill a form, annex Cave C-card and Insurance, provide a "good-reason" for wanting to dive that cave and in the specifics that portion of the cave.

"License" gets emailed back, and when you park your car you are required to display on the window the "licenses" for each of the divers.

No "license" - diver takes the picture of the car and plate and offending divers and emails it to NSS-CDS, NACD, IUCRR... letter goes out to the Sheriff, Sheriff gets off his chair and knocks on the door of the "rule-breaker" and makes enquiries (especially if the cave is on public land and there is a sign put there saying "NO OW DIVERS...").

Short of that, maybe we should all stop moaning on the internet about cave diving getting bad publicity and getting closed...

...and I don't buy nobody in the knowledge knew these two characters were doing what they were doing (and press reports indeed indicate otherwise).

Put down the regulator and back away slowly ... someone accidentally filled your nitrox tank with nitrous oxide.

Why should anyone need to provide a "good reason" to go do something recreationally? I think "because I want to" is all the reason they should need.

Do we really want to get into the business of regulating personal responsibility? What does that do for us as a society except creation even more people dependent on the state to make their decisions for them?

And since you're proposing we do that in cave diving, shall we extend it to other recreational activities? Should we require proof of competence before we allow people onto a ski lift chair that *might* place the skier on a trail for which they are unqualified? Lord knows we wouldn't want that person ... who willingly placed themselves in a situation way over their abilities despite clear signage telling them what the difficulties were ... to turn their brain into pizza toppings spattered all over a tree trunk. We'll leave it up to the National Ski Patrol to monitor these folks and make sure that they don't have access to slopes that are above their abilities ... and report any violators to the local police.

What about a person who wants to go hiking in the mountains? Shall we require a demonstration of their ability to find their way back? Or proof that they can read a contour map and therefore won't accidentally blunder off a cliff? Maybe make the local mountaineering club responsible for enforcing rules that prevent unqualified people from accessing hiking trails?

Wait, I have it! Let's require someone who wants to go hunting to demonstrate both knowledge of hunting regulations and actual competence handling a firearm before we allow them to purchase a gun ... oh that should go over well with the American public. No need for a license ... we'll just make enforcement the responsibility of the National Rifle Association.

Seriously ... let's stop trying to build a nanny state that uses regulations to protect people from their own stupidity, or the absurd notion that people who provide services for a given activity should somehow be tasked with preventing irresponsible people from doing irresponsible things. All that would accomplish would be to dilute the gene pool, create even more stupid people, and make someone else responsible for their acts of stupidity.

Stupid is supposed to hurt. Too much stupid is supposed to be fatal. It's how nature maintains a balance and assures the propagation of the species ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[RJP]

As far as Spivey not doing anything illegal, I still don't believe that anyone outside of his family/friends knew that the son was doing these kinds of dives.

Well, Robert Brooks has stated in the media that he knew Spivey was cave diving without proper training or certification. He also seemed to know he was diving EN, based on his comments. He also knew that he was diving with his uncertified son SOMEWHERE. He has not stated that he also knew he was taking his son cave diving... but it defies credulity to think that Brooks wasn't aware that Spivey was taking his son cave diving.

The fiancé knew he was taking his untrained, uncertified son cave diving. She knew it was dangerous.

The friend interviewed in the news knew he was taking his untrained, uncertified son cave diving. He not only knew it was dangerous, but stated that he sat on the dock each time, fully expecting that they wouldn't come back. Seems he had a "reasonable expectation" that cave diving could cause bodily harm or the death of Dillon Sanchez.

That aside, the point I'm making is that a simple reading of the Florida statutes suggests that a pretty clear case could be made that Spivey's conduct was illegal. The fact that family, friends, and/or certified cave divers KNEW what he was doing is sad... but immaterial.

There's been no mention of Dillon's mother, or whether she knew what was going on.

 

[flots am]

Trained cave divers seek to minimize risk; these dare devils appear to have sought risk wherever they could find it.

The more I learn about this incident, the more I think it would make a great training video. Like the old SSI Stress & Rescue video with the guy and his girlfriend who stay up late drinking, almost miss the boat and dive hungover with a severe case of "stupid".

I've been unable to find a single aspect of this dive that contained any amount of good judgement on the part of anybody.

SCUBA instructors could certainly use this as an example of "what not to do" since the entire thing is an unbroken series of "what not to do."

flots.

 

[redacted]

So, tell me why a "license" system as already in place elsewhere to protect caves and cave divers (i.e. a simple web based system which can be largely automated and is cheap, but effective) is something which "Cave Organizations" can't put in place to [further] protect caves and [further] reduce risk/fatalities (in addition to putting up the warning signs which, provocatively I think, a CNN journalist said "not every single diver reads... so we have this tragedy...")? - CNN here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10104002198688593

I do not believe there are any "Cave Organizations" in the USA that have authority to issue or require such licenses for facilities they do not own (control).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

A thought on training:

One can learn most anything from books or online if one is motivated. However only with training by a professional can one can get a degree of assurance they will be able to perform in the real world or at least be warned that they can't perform adequately.

One can learn almost anything from books or online ... but to understand the meaning of what one learned requires context. Context comes from experience, not reading.

That said, a serious clue that there were massive gaps in what these two learned through self-teaching is the fact that they ran out of gas. Absent a serious mishap ... such as a total silt-out ... this simply should never happen to a cave diver ... however they may have trained. Even a complete failure of one diver's gas supply ... by whatever means it happens ... should not cause the two of them to run out of gas prior to exiting the cave.

The fact that it happened says to me that these two may have learned something through online study ... but they didn't learn nearly enough to be where they were ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[gianaameri]

Put down the regulator and back away slowly ... someone accidentally filled your nitrox tank with nitrous oxide.

Why should anyone need to provide a "good reason" to go do something recreationally? I think "because I want to" is all the reason they should need.

Do we really want to get into the business of regulating personal responsibility? What does that do for us as a society except creation even more people dependent on the state to make their decisions for them?

And since you're proposing we do that in cave diving, shall we extend it to other recreational activities? Should we require proof of competence before we allow people onto a ski lift chair that *might* place the skier on a trail for which they are unqualified? Lord knows we wouldn't want that person ... who willingly placed themselves in a situation way over their abilities despite clear signage telling them what the difficulties were ... to turn their brain into pizza toppings spattered all over a tree trunk. We'll leave it up to the National Ski Patrol to monitor these folks and make sure that they don't have access to slopes that are above their abilities ... and report any violators to the local police.

What about a person who wants to go hiking in the mountains? Shall we require a demonstration of their ability to find their way back? Or proof that they can read a contour map and therefore won't accidentally blunder off a cliff? Maybe make the local mountaineering club responsible for enforcing rules that prevent unqualified people from accessing hiking trails?

Wait, I have it! Let's require someone who wants to go hunting to demonstrate both knowledge of hunting regulations and actual competence handling a firearm before we allow them to purchase one ... oh that should go over well with the American public. No need for a license ... we'll just make enforcement the responsibility of the National Rifle Association.

Seriously ... let's stop trying to build a nanny state that uses regulations to protect people from their own stupidity, or the absurd notion that people who provide services for a given activity should somehow be tasked with preventing irresponsible people from doing irresponsible things. All that would accomplish would be to dilute the gene pool, create even more stupid people, and make someone else responsible for their acts of stupidity.

Stupid is supposed to hurt. Too much stupid is supposed to be fatal. It's how nature maintains a balance and assures the propagation of the species ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

"Good reason" can be "exploration/survey" for a portion of the unexplored/newly explored part of the cave, or maybe "training" for a surveyed/explored/made safe portion of the cave...

If you divide the cave in sectors, then the "license" can be limited to a particular sector where good reason can be shown/demonstrated, so you can make a section still under exploration off limits other than for the exploration team (for the safety of the exploration team and less experienced divers), while another sector ("easier" and without exploratory lines...) "open" to all those with any cave C-cards.

"Good reason" = "Common Sense"

It is not a "nanny state" and has nothing to do with state laws or regulation.

It is purely a private sector expression/form of self-regulation/organization to responsibly increase cave diving safety and protect the caves and the environment (which will also protect the business which has developed around cave diving).