Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[HIGHwing]

Well for people who have NOT seen certain individuals show their true colors in earlier threads, one sort of has to play it through initially, until it gets to too surreal for response.

There's some good material here and at CCRExplorers about rebreathers if you're bored.

 

[lv2dive]

LOL, the purpose of responding was to play it through "for people who have NOT seen certain individuals show their true colors in earlier threads" - I am certainly far from bored this week.

But thanks for the tip!

There's some good material here and at CCRExplorers about rebreathers if you're bored.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

"Good reason" can be "exploration/survey" for a portion of the unexplored/newly explored part of the cave, or maybe "training" for a surveyed/explored/made safe portion of the cave...

If you divide the cave in sectors, then the "license" can be limited to a particular sector where good reason can be shown/demonstrated, so you can make a section still under exploration off limits other than for the exploration team (for the safety of the exploration team and less experienced divers), while another sector ("easier" and without exploratory lines...) "open" to all those with any cave C-cards.

"Good reason" = "Common Sense"

It is not a "nanny state" and has nothing to do with state laws or regulation.

It is purely a private sector expression/form of self-regulation/organization to responsibly increase cave diving safety and protect the caves and the environment (which will also protect the business which has developed around cave diving).

So do you believe that "exploration/survey" and "training" are the only reasons why people dive? If not, please provide a complete list of what you would define to be "good reasons" ... because what you're proposing is that someone create just such a list, and exclude anyone whose reasons for wanting to dive isn't on that list.

To my concern, the only reason anyone needs to give is "because I want to". Beyond that, who are any of us to define for someone else why they should do something?

Would you propose that we require everyone engaged in every recreational activity where they might injure themselves to provide a "good reason" before they're allowed to do it?

The very mentality just smacks of a level of control that would suck the fun out of diving.

For what it's worth ... the reason for the dive wasn't the issue in this accident ... the lack of preparation, responsibility and common sense were.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[gianaameri]

The statement that the warnings that are currently given are not working is to defy the statistics. The fact that we are getting so worked up over one incident is an indication that it is working pretty well. Although untrained people do go into caves, and some of them do die there, the numbers really are pretty small overall. They are working for the overwhelming majority of divers. Only a handful at the far end of the bell curve are ignoring the message.

That does not mean we can't do a better job in some way. Notice that I am not offering that solution. I don't know it.

As I have said before, I don't understand why cave diving is perceived differently from other similar activities where going beyond your training can be fatal. There are no warning signs to be found anywhere. I live in an area with lots of challenging rock climbing sites, and you regularly can watch highly trained climbers on those walls. Occasionally under-trained climbers fall to their deaths. You never then hear a call for closing the sites, providing better warning systems, etc. People kind of figure that if you did a climb for which you are not qualified, then you did something stupid and paid for it.

"Seventy-four divers (20%) were known to have been trained in cave-diving techniques, while 208 (57%) were reported to have not completed any cave diving training." ( http://speleosub.ch/PDF-dateien/CaveDivingFatalities_bis2007.pdf ).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Oh ... and gianaameri ... as for your "ONLY IN AMERICA" comment (yes, I know you have since deleted it, but still) ...

Italy: Four scuba divers drown in 'Blood Grotto' panic - CNN.com

None of those divers ... including the guide who took them in ... were cave certified.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jax]

"Seventy-four divers (20%) were known to have been trained in cave-diving techniques, while 208 (57%) were reported to have not completed any cave diving training." ( http://speleosub.ch/PDF-dateien/CaveDivingFatalities_bis2007.pdf ).

Finish the quote, why don't you:

Seventy-four divers (20%) were known to have been trained in cave-diving techniques, while 208 (57%) were reported to have not completed any cave diving training. The training status of the remaining 86 (23%) divers could not be deter - mined from information contained within the records. The number of deaths per year within the dataset appears to diminish over time, as shown in Figure 3, while the proportion of divers who were trained appears to have increased over the same period, as shown in Figure 4.

Furthermore, the above did NOT account for any medical occurrences. It is simply a listing of attributes, just like the gender, occupation, and other notes.

Simply grabbing 'helpful' statistics out of a complete report is "Lies, damn lies, and statistics."

 

[gianaameri]

So do you believe that "exploration/survey" and "training" are the only reasons why people dive? If not, please provide a complete list of what you would define to be "good reasons" ... because what you're proposing is that someone create just such a list, and exclude anyone whose reasons for wanting to dive isn't on that list.

To my concern, the only reason anyone needs to give is "because I want to". Beyond that, who are any of us to define for someone else why they should do something?

Would you propose that we require everyone engaged in every recreational activity where they might injure themselves to provide a "good reason" before they're allowed to do it?

The very mentality just smacks of a level of control that would suck the fun out of diving.

For what it's worth ... the reason for the dive wasn't the issue in this accident ... the lack of preparation, responsibility and common sense were.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

"Because I want to" in the case of the deceased in my book would not have been a "good reason" to do the dive which they did.

It would have been a "bad reason."

If someone has adequate training and insurance, and the cave is of no particular importance/significance (i.e. protected for some reason), then in most/many circumstances "because I want to" seems like a pretty good reason.

Some caves there is a waiting list of years to get into.

 

[HIGHwing]

Appears swimming pools are dangerous, too. CDC Data & Statistics | Feature: Stay Safe In and Around Swimming Pools

 

[Jax]

"Because I want to" in the case of the deceased in my book would not have been a "good reason" to do the dive which they did.

It would have been a "bad reason."

And just who are you to tell me my wants are a "bad reason"? Who died that you are God?

-- Please don't take this personal -- the "you" in this is *any* authority in America where our lives are based on the "pursuit of happiness". Just because one person / entity deems the pursuit in some denigrate manner does not make it so for any other.

 

[gianaameri]

And just who are you to tell me my wants are a "bad reason"? Who died that you are God?

-- Please don't take this personal -- the "you" in this is *any* authority in America where our lives are based on the "pursuit of happiness". Just because one person / entity deems the pursuit in some denigrate manner does not make it so for any other.

It was only my opinion in reference to this particular incident.

Some people went as far as saying this particular dive amounted to a "felony" under U.S. law.

It would be for the Cave Organizations (not me) to decide what constitutes "good reason" in my "license" system thought/proposal/example.

Happy New Year and talk to you in 2014!