Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

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You're assuming they intended to go that far in the first place. How about "I can go to 180' and not be so narced I wind up at 233' -- won't happen to me."

Obviously they thought it wouldn't happen to them. I think the point that Flots Am is trying to make is that it's only part of the problem in this incident. You make it sounds like everyone that dives at this dive site is surviving by shear luck and that they are no different than these two victims.

There are hundreds of people that do thousands of dives at Eagle's Nest every year without incident because they have the right training, equipment, and experience. Those divers don't start dives with half the gas required to complete the dive safely (including dealing with gas loss scenarios). They also breath the right gases for the planned depths among other things. So while it's true that probably every diver thinks it won't happen to them, many have good reason to believe that because they are aware of the dangers and have planned accordingly. On the other hand, there are those that have zero reason to think it won't happen to them, but they believe it anyway. One group has a much higher rate of death than the other.
 
You make it sounds like everyone that dives at this dive site is surviving by shear luck and that they are no different than these two victims.

You win the creative reading comprehension award for getting that from what I actually wrote. There's not much difference between playing Russian roulette with a 1911 and a wheel gun, but there is some difference. flots post ignored that.

I'm not disputing they're dead because of their failure to obtain cave training -- it's pretty clear there was nothing terribly dangerous about the site or their dive in specific aside from their failure to understand and come prepared to manage the dangers inherent in cave diving -- but there's piss all evidence they intentionally did a dive that requires 600cf of gas with 200cf and just assumed fairy dust and magic would make the math work out.
 
There's not much difference between playing Russian roulette with a 1911 and a wheel gun, but there is some difference.
Actually, there is a LOT of difference. You pull the trigger once with a 1911, and if it goes click, that's it, you can't pull the trigger again...so you get just one chance to kill yourself. With a wheel gun, you can keep pulling the trigger and keep winning, until you lose. If there is just one chamber with a round in it, you will lose, sooner or later. These guys were using a wheel gun, and they finally lost.
 
but there's piss all evidence they intentionally did a dive that requires 600cf of gas with 200cf and just assumed fairy dust and magic would make the math work out.

The impression I get is they were probably within 10 to 20 cu ft of getting away with whatever they did. So what is the other 380 cu ft for? (Or 300 cu ft if you adjust for the staged Al80 they did not make it back to?) Was 200 cu ft of back gas and 80 of deco an adequate planned supply for the dive they did previously at EN to about 185 ft?
 
You win the creative reading comprehension award for getting that from what I actually wrote. There's not much difference between playing Russian roulette with a 1911 and a wheel gun, but there is some difference. flots post ignored that.

I'm not disputing they're dead because of their failure to obtain cave training -- it's pretty clear there was nothing terribly dangerous about the site or their dive in specific aside from their failure to understand and come prepared to manage the dangers inherent in cave diving -- but there's piss all evidence they intentionally did a dive that requires 600cf of gas with 200cf and just assumed fairy dust and magic would make the math work out.

I didn't really think you were trying to imply otherwise, I was just trying to add to what I *think* flots am was getting at. Which is that while everyone thinks 'it won't happen to me' before they start a dive, these guys had no justification for feeling that way.

I totally agree with your message though. They absolutely knew that what they were doing was not considered acceptable by the diving community, but they felt that the warnings did not apply to them for whatever reason.

The 15 year old I feel bad for. Even though it was impossible for him not to know these were bad decisions, he was probably still too young, invincible, and immature to be expected to make the right call. The father...not so much.
 
Does anyone know their total bottom time? I would presume there computers would show a changing depth until the end. That information never gets out unfortunately but was just wondering.

Or do we know if the gear was checked out to see if their was malfunction?

Garth
 
The impression I get is they were probably within 10 to 20 cu ft of getting away with whatever they did. So what is the other 380 cu ft for? (Or 300 cu ft if you adjust for the staged Al80 they did not make it back to?) Was 200 cu ft of back gas and 80 of deco an adequate planned supply for the dive they did previously at EN to about 185 ft?

We don't know their exact profile or the percentage of their time spent at max depth so exact numbers aren't going to happen. However, what might seem to be a lot of extra gas (i.e. the extra hundreds of cuft needed to do this dive properly) would be, among other things, for reserve in case a dive team member had a catastrophic gas loss. On their last dive, even if they had made it back to their 80cuft tanks, they would probably still have been in a race between completing their deco obligation and running out of air before they could surface. They might have been 10 - 20 cuft away from surviving, but with zero reserve. If they continued to plan dives like that, they would always have had one tiny problem (a brief free flow for example) between a "successful" dive and death.

As far as the dive to ~185', again, it depends on their planned profile and time at max depth, but yes 280cuft could be safe enough if you spent very little time at max depth. I don't really want to get into anything that could be considered a dive plan by someone reading this forum so I'll just leave it at that.

However, I really don't get the impression they ever made it beyond the ballroom on any of their three dives. Even on the last dive my best guess is that they reached max depth by following one of the lines down to the floor near the start of one of the cave passages. Basically, that would have put them in the transition between "the ballroom" and one of the "cave passages" or perhaps just at the bottom of the debris mound. This is a very big space with very big passages so it's open to interpretation where one begins and the other ends. Even for the distance and depth they did travel they clearly didn't have anywhere near enough gas for their dive.
 
Does anyone know their total bottom time? I would presume there computers would show a changing depth until the end. That information never gets out unfortunately but was just wondering.

Or do we know if the gear was checked out to see if their was malfunction?
The gear is always checked out, so we can be sure that will happen. The computer will also be checked. But don't count on ever hearing the results. In fact, you can be pretty sure that you won't hear the results. We are unusually lucky to know as much as we do. There has been a discussion of this on another forum that is most illuminating in this regard.

As was mentioned much earlier in the thread, there is an organization called the IUCRR that has the official responsibility to perform body recoveries, complete investigations, and issue a report to the police. Although people involved in the recovery had IUCRR training, the IUCRR did not officially supervise the operation or its aftermath because they were not notified as they were supposed to be. Things are now in official hands, however.

When the IUCRR is in charge of the recovery site, no one talks to the press. No one later participates in these threads to tell what they know. They have been warned that anything they say may violate privacy laws, etc., so their policy is to stay silent. Because there was no such group in charge of this recovery site, the recovering divers did talk to the press, which is mostly how we know what we know.

Years ago, the IUCRR published their reports publicly. Not any more. Again, they have been warned that they may be violating privacy laws. The police will not usually release the reports, either, even though they are considered public records under the sunshine laws. If you know a report has been completed, you can request it from the police via the freedom of information act, and they are obligated to send it to you.

The following comment from the IUCRR appeared on another forum as an explanation as to why they no longer publish their reports.

Law enforcement may choose to close a case or may elect to keep it open. The IUCRR is not notified by law enforcement when or what decision is made. In addition to possible criminal investigation there is civil litigation that is affected by a statute of limitation that allows parties with standing to sue. That may be two or more years after the event depending on venue. .... I have no desire to put the IUCRR and any of its volunteers in a situation just to satisfy some ghoulish internet curiosity. The important information is already out there for all trained cave divers to understand. ...

The time spent by some vocal internet critics could and should be used to BUY A STAMP and file a FOIA or Sunshine law request as you suggested earlier. Any individual doing that and learning something from a Law Enforcement agency that we have pledged our confidentiality to can post whatever they like and face any legal consequences for doing so.​
 
You win the creative reading comprehension award for getting that from what I actually wrote. There's not much difference between playing Russian roulette with a 1911 and a wheel gun, but there is some difference. flots post ignored that.

I'm not disputing they're dead because of their failure to obtain cave training -- it's pretty clear there was nothing terribly dangerous about the site or their dive in specific aside from their failure to understand and come prepared to manage the dangers inherent in cave diving -- but there's piss all evidence they intentionally did a dive that requires 600cf of gas with 200cf and just assumed fairy dust and magic would make the math work out.


Ahhhhhhhh, the unfortunate reality that is now so prevalent - what I call "Magical Thinking" - sorry, buttercup, but just because you WANT to do something doesn't mean you can break the rules of reality and simply use your DESIRE to trump training, quality gear, and risk assessment.
 

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