Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[Dive-aholic]

the keys were handed over to the guys...

Under a false pretense.

---------- Post added December 31st, 2013 at 08:22 PM ----------

Damn - never realized just how expensive this is! Not that I have ANY desire to ever do cave diving, or even technical diving for that matter - but WOW.

I'm into 6 figures. Hit that amount about 7.5 years ago when I moved to Florida just to be able to dive the caves every day. And that doesn't include the pay cut I took.

---------- Post added December 31st, 2013 at 08:24 PM ----------

so what????? You need a reel at LR, in fact it is one of the longer runs to the gold in the area of the heavily dove caves.

That's my point Chris. Go back and re-read the series of posts that lead to my response.

---------- Post added December 31st, 2013 at 08:26 PM ----------

Agreed, but I wasn't speaking in general terms. I was talking specifically about a 15 year old doing staged deco Trimix dives in a cave. I find it very hard to believe that people in the cave diving community were aware of this and just ignored it. So far, there is no reason to believe that was the case, but for some reason a handful of people keep pointing their finger (over and over and over) at the cave diving community and asking why we didn't do something to stop this. For example...

The 15 year old child was not doing staged deco trimix dives in a cave. He was doing deep air dives in a cave. There's a huge difference. And some people in the cave diving community were aware of it. This has been reported.

---------- Post added December 31st, 2013 at 08:27 PM ----------

The NSS-CDS, NACD, IUCRR... should realise that the current attitude at the top, middle, and bottom and the current system in place of displaying warning signs is NOT working.

The NACD has realized this and we are doing something about it.

---------- Post added December 31st, 2013 at 08:44 PM ----------

I was thinking in terms of the UW gate so the entire facility in not unnecessarily closed to other divers. Locking it open would still allow subsequent divers to enter who could later find a locked exit.

Placing a gate with a lock at any entrance is a bad idea. Vortex has a gate. I've been in there a couple of times and don't like it. I left the lock on the gate with the gate unlocked. If there's an issue inside the gate during the dive I don't want to have to fumble with a key and lock at a gate while I'm trying to get back to the surface, especially if it happens to be in zero visibility. While gating off a cave is an attempt to keep out untrained divers in order to save them, it increases the risk of the qualified cave divers who want to dive that cave.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I would hazard to say that one could learn a tremendous amount about gas management from books or online. Is there really anything about gas management that one could not learn from a book or online? I know the calculations are in books and online. I know the rule of thirds is in books and online. I know the decompression tables are there. I know there is plenty on partial pressures and oxygen toxicity. Even the explanations of the "whys" and "wherefores" of gas management are there.

Yet our heros seem to have perished due to poor gas management.

Now, it could be that our heros ran out of gas while dealing with some other problem, such as getting lost, but I have seen nothing suggesting that. So I will assume it was just poor gas management, the one easy thing they could have learned pretty well from books or online. My conclusion is that they probably did not even do the book or online learning.

But it's one thing to comprehend the words and concepts ... and quite another to comprehend how to apply it or why it matters. It's quite possible that it never occurred to them that gas management in a cave was any different than it would be in open water ... in which case it would have never occurred to them that they should be reading about it in the first place ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[grassyknoll]

Lets run a little challenge! Can anyone tell me what happened to me in May? It is all over several websites, including FB. And I'll give you a hint: it ended in a helicopter ride. If not, then it stands to reason no one who knew better may have known what these guys were doing.

6 Rescued After Canoe Mishap - Police & Fire - Marina del Rey, CA Patch

my guess.

Sorry for the somwwhat OT post, but it's been 6 pages and I need closure on this.

 

[Ron Lee]

The 15 year old child was not doing staged deco trimix dives in a cave. He was doing deep air dives in a cave. There's a huge difference. And some people in the cave diving community were aware of it. This has been reported.

Interesting since a page or so back another poster was certain that there was no proof that cave certified folks knew about the younger person diving in caves.

Here is the video where a guy said he sat there and worried about them returning. Reportedly this guy is a diver.

See 1:41 to 1:51 in the video

[video]http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/24306570/2013/12/26/2-cave-divers-found-dead-in-wildlife-area?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9 672796[/video]

 

[flots am]

You're assuming they intended to go that far in the first place. How about "I can go to 180' and not be so narced I wind up at 233' -- won't happen to me."

What difference would it make if the horribly planned and executed dive was "supposed to be" shallower?

It makes no difference to anybody if they were planning on 20' or 300'. They went to 233' and they're still dead.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

One thing that bothers me in that article and many of the posts here is the constant reference to certification. I consider certification to be irrelevant. Training, yes. Although certification implies training it does not necessarily equate with competence, and a lack of certification does not equate with a lack of training or competence.

I have seen what you are saying at other levels of diving but not cave certification. Other level are sometimes, "certified but not qualified." In all the cave instruction it is more, not qualified means not certified." There may be some out there but from my instructor as well as many others...you cannot buy the certification...but earn it.

I do not think that anyone has ever posted that they thought the class was too easy.

 

[gcarter]

One thing that bothers me in that article and many of the posts here is the constant reference to certification. I consider certification to be irrelevant. Training, yes. Although certification implies training it does not necessarily equate with competence, and a lack of certification does not equate with a lack of training or competence.

I have seen what you are saying at other levels of diving but not cave certification. Other level are sometimes, "certified but not qualified." In all the cave instruction it is more, not qualified means not certified." There may be some out there but from my instructor as well as many others...you cannot buy the certification...but earn it.

I do not think that anyone has ever posted that they thought the class was too easy.

Not having done cave training, I will accept your comment without challenge. (Edit: Also because you generally seem to make sense )

Nonetheless, what I consider the most important part of what I wrote is the highlighted part. I do not believe it to be the case with these divers, but the reality is that there are very competent divers at all levels who do not hold certs to match their training / experience / competence.

 

[Cleavitt]

The 15 year old child was not doing staged deco trimix dives in a cave. He was doing deep air dives in a cave. There's a huge difference. And some people in the cave diving community were aware of it. This has been reported.

I clarified the Trimix comment in a previous post. What I was trying to say is that they were attempting a dive that would normally be a staged deco Trimix cave dive base on accepted practices. I didn't mean to imply that they were actually using Trimix and yes, there is a huge difference.

You keep insisting that people in the cave diving community were aware that the father was taking the kid on these kind of dives, but you won't take the time to provide a single link to any source. I have looked for actual evidence of this and I can't find any reports with anything more than vague comments like "I told him to get training" that make no mention of the kid at all. I would think that since you are a member of the cave diving community (as am I) you would at least take the time to share a link to one of these reports while you are taking the time to throw your fellow cave divers under the bus and portray the community in a bad light. Anyway, until I see a source or something more than wild speculation I'll just keep calling BS.

Interesting since a page or so back another poster was certain that there was no proof that cave certified folks knew about the younger person diving in caves.

Here is the video where a guy said he sat there and worried about them returning. Reportedly this guy is a diver.

See 1:41 to 1:51 in the video

[video]http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/24306570/2013/12/26/2-cave-divers-found-dead-in-wildlife-area?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9 672796[/video]

You must be the "guilty until proven innocent" type of person. Those of us that are questioning and asking for proof still haven't seen any so we err on the side of caution (as in not accusing people of being in some way responsible or complicit in the death of a child). On the other hand, you assume guilty because someone on the internet said, "...the cave diving community were aware of it. This has been reported."

In the video you linked to, the "diver" you mentioned is the best friend of the father. He is the one that is quoted as saying he sat on the dock while they dove, wondering if they would come back. He is most likely an OW diver just like the dad was. They don't say this in the report, but I can tell he isn't a trained cave diver for a few reasons.

1) The reporter or the friend himself most likely would have said that he was a cave diver instead of just saying "a diver himself".
2) More importantly, why would a trained cave diver make the trip all the way out to Eagle's Nest and then just sit on the steps watching the water and hoping for a good outcome while his open water friend and non-certified friend's son went on a cave dive?
3) Why would a trained cave diver say things like "cave diving is just too dangerous."?
4) While he says he worried during their dives, he is clearly bewildered at the death of his friends. As if he knew there was some risk, but he didn't fully understand that level of risk until now. A trained cave diver would have been so keenly aware of the dangers that their death would have been expected. Upsetting none the less, but not at all confusing.

It makes no sense. That guy is a close family friend that happens to be an open water diver, but I see no reason to believe he is part of the cave diving community. He also can't be considered part of the general diving community for the purposes of this discussion because he is a close friend first and a diver second (i.e. any attempt to warn or report his friend would have been done as a friend not as some random concerned diver, dive shop owner, etc.). He also happens to be smart enough to know that he shouldn't be doing these dives which is why he was sitting on the steps. I feel for him. I'm sure he wishes he had done more to stop them (he says exactly that in the interviews), but I really doubt there is anything he could have said to change their minds.

 

[gianaameri]

I think it's clear that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of this dive site. There is no business controlling it or making money directly from it. It is on public land owned by the state of Florida. It is a wilderness reserve that streches for miles in all directions and it is mostly used by the public for hunting. The cave diving industry in Florida isn't tied to this one cave, or a few dozen caves. It is thousands of caves spread out over hundreds of miles. Nobody is getting rich in the Florida cave diving industry. Therefore, the private sector doesn't have the resources to police the thousands of caves in the state. The public sector's solution is generally limited to "open at you own risk" or "closed". There are rules and regulations imposed to various degrees at many of our dive sites both public and privately owned. Some of those regulations are much more strict and thorough than what you are suggesting. Even at those sites, people have found ways to dive beyond their abilities and deaths have occurred.

Out of curiosity, is the system you are suggesting so effective that there has never been a cave diving death in your country?

The situation you describe is similar wherever there are caves.

Now, if the authorities set a rule for cave entry by the general public on public land (i.e. "NO OW DIVERS...), then , particularly where a minor is involved, the authority has a duty to enforce the rule when it becomes aware of the breach (i.e. by a fellow diver reporting the breach, for example) where there is a danger to the general public (i.e. a minor and/or fellow divers).

This creates the opportunity for a "Cave Organization" to create a "license" system as I described in prior posts, preferably with prior discussion/involvement with the authorities, to facilitate the carrying out of the activity (cave diving) in a safer and better organised manner and for the protection of the cave (i.e. within the Charter/Scope of the Cave Organization).

Once the system is in place, it fosters a culture of not diving in the cave without the "license" and displaying the "license" (at least when asked)... and it is easier for the complying members to identify and reporting the Spiveys (there will continue to be Spiveys same as in hunting there continues to be poachers unlawfully killing and stealing "game").

People will continue to dive and die in caves (maybe the rebreather kills them and it has nothing to do with their lack of training or the cave, or it is just human error on that particular bad day), but if the Cave Organizations feel, as they do, that there should be NO SPIVEYS IN THE CAVE, and the authorities feel, as they do, that there should be NO OW DIVERS IN THE CAVE, then with a working and effective system people will not die for lack of cave training (or to the very least there will be less untrained divers in the cave damaging the cave).

Off to catch a plane for one week of rebreather cave diving (fingers crossed!).

 

[Dr. Lecter]

What difference would it make if the horribly planned and executed dive was "supposed to be" shallower?

It makes no difference to anybody if they were planning on 20' or 300'. They went to 233' and they're still dead.

You're the one who was babbling on about them bringing 200cf for a dive that, as planned, would require 600cf. If you'd like to stick to 'they died because they brought neither the training nor the gear necessary for the dive' you'll get no argument from me. If you insist on hyperbole like you used earlier, I'll insist on pointing out there's a difference between being suicidially irrational and just being so sloppy you get yourself killed.

If nothing else, the hyperbole detracts from the intended message, as it leaves the unqualified thinking 'well, what I'm planning isn't doing something with a 100% chance of death, so I'm cool.' The two dead divers in question aren't dead because they did something so blindingly stupid nobody could have possibly thought it was anything but a death wish. They're dead because most of the right gear and close to the right gas and some experience aren't nearly enough to go cave diving.