Has SCUBA training gone too far?

[T.C.]

Can't win. Either the conversation is about how poorly trained divers are, or how there are too many course options. Sheesh!

And the Zombie diver - not a "PADI specialty" but rather, a distinctive specialty created by an individual instructor. There are lots of those, and maybe it will be brought into the mainstream. Until then, don't blame the agency for that, blame that creative instructor who found a way to meet the needs and wants of his client base in a fun and innovative way.

Does PADI recognize it? Do they get their cut?

I rest my case.

Giffenk, I hear what you're saying, but I believe that this applies to the specialties. No one will argue the value of technical training, cave training, or Rescue diver training, for example.

 

[Steve_C]

I think you are making a big deal about very little. Most of the classes do not certify you to do anything. When I was starting diving I had a very limited number of dive buddies. I took lots of classes. (Deep, Dry, Equipment, Drift, Nav, Nitrox, DPV, Rescue, Buoyancy, Boat, Night, Solo, DM and probably some others). Because of this I did a lot more diving, with a lot more variety, with more experienced divers then I would have done otherwise. I also learned a fair amount along the way. I've also read the book for a number of courses I did not take. Most of my instructors taught past the minimums so I gained from them.

The cost of most courses is about the same as a days diving at the NC coast. So its another days diving. My diving is limited by time and not dollars.

If the money is an issue or you don't like taking classes then don't.

A couple of the courses I took later after I was already doing those kinds of dives because I needed them for DM so I did not learn anything on them (Deep and Boat) but they were still enjoyable dives.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Not to hijack the thread and turn it into a discussion specifically about how to create a training hierarchy, but I think this type of format (with some tweaking of course) is what would make the sport more appealing. As a kid, I don't think my parents would have pulled the trigger on the cost of my OW course if the education had seemed endless. All that was offered was OW, AOW, Night, Deep, Ice, Wreck, DM, Instructor. But, knowing what I know now, quality education makes a huge difference. We need a little more experience from the instructors, a little more quality-control in pro level training, and a little less superfluous coaxing to put money into the sport by students who truly want and believe they are getting good value for the dollar. My girlfriend is a figure skating coach and they are doing it mostly right in that world ... except for the point system in competition which is way off topic.

Diving should be made affordable and fun for the OW diver and at most would require just one class. Some would be happy at level 2. After that the truly dedicated would still seek out training to enhance adventure.

No C-card for a DSD, Resort Diver, or any training that isn't a full cert. Freediving no C-cards.

Scuba Diver Level 1: OW + Surface Rescues + Deep + Night + Advanced Navigation + DSMB + Primary Reel
Scuba Diver Level 2: Intro to Tech + Drysuit + Nitrox + Doubles + U/W Rescues + Dive Leadership (certified assistant/class & pool instructor)
Scuba Diver Level 3: Divemaster (also must be certified lifeguard & EMT with 100 dives)
Scuba Diver Level 4: Open Water Instructor (must have 500 dives)
Technical Diver Level 1: Advanced Nitrox + Hyperoxic Trimix with 1 Deco Bottle to 150
Technical Diver Level 2: Extended Range + Normoxic Trimix with 2 Deco Bottles to 200
Technical Diver Level 3: Hypoxic Trimix with Multiple Deco Bottles to 300+
Technical Diver Level 4: Technical Diving Instructor (OW instructor with 300 dives above level 1)
Ice Diver Level 1: Diver
Ice Diver Level 2: Instructor (OW instructor with 100 ice dives)
Wreck Diver Level 1: Penetration Diver
Wreck Diver Level 2: Instructor (OW instructor with 100 wreck penetration dives)
Cave Diver Level 1: Full Cave Diver
Cave Diver Level 2: Stage, DPV, Survey, Rescue/Recovery
Cave Diver Level 3: Cave Instructor (OW instructor with 300 dives above level 1)
Rebreathers (unit specific training from manufacturer endorsed instructor could issue card through his/her affiliated agency)

 

[diver 85]

(broke??) people trying to make a buck.........

 

[TMHeimer]

I think you are making a big deal about very little. Most of the classes do not certify you to do anything. When I was starting diving I had a very limited number of dive buddies. I took lots of classes. (Deep, Dry, Equipment, Drift, Nav, Nitrox, DPV, Rescue, Buoyancy, Boat, Night, Solo, DM and probably some others). Because of this I did a lot more diving, with a lot more variety, with more experienced divers then I would have done otherwise. I also learned a fair amount along the way. I've also read the book for a number of courses I did not take. Most of my instructors taught past the minimums so I gained from them.

The cost of most courses is about the same as a days diving at the NC coast. So its another days diving. My diving is limited by time and not dollars.

If the money is an issue or you don't like taking classes then don't.

A couple of the courses I took later after I was already doing those kinds of dives because I needed them for DM so I did not learn anything on them (Deep and Boat) but they were still enjoyable dives.

I pretty much agree here. We all know OW courses decades ago were very different--a big thing was including Rescue skills (I know some agencies still do this). The OP mentioned Navigation--I guess you could really learn all the tricks you can do with a compass by reading up on it instead of course. "Natural" navigation is mostly logic if you have any sort of water backround. Taking the course may be an easier way to go, though. As well, I wouldn't even do the very basic penetration the PADI Wreck course teaches without trying it out with an instructor. But there are also so many courses that really make little sense.

 

[Aguablanco1]

Just because one reads a book on astronauts, it doesn't make them an astronaut. Training is nothing more than a short apprenticeship in that specialty. It does not instill skill, even though it should. It is simply some basic knowledge that must be furthered by actually putting that knowledge to practical use. While doing that one will learn the actual skill. This is why we have a whole bunch of training while still having inexperienced divers. How many divers go from OW to AOW to Rescue and higher in the blink for an eye? They don't take the time to refine the knowledge and skill from the last course before taking the next. They confuse knowledge with skill. This is reinforced by the agencies through the instructors. It seems only logical that there be more requirements on practical demonstrations of any skills one pays to learn. Unfortunately, in the race to the bottom in pricing, it has become impossible to charge enough to give the proper amount of instruction in the time that is being paid for. Hence there is no time for the instructor to fully examine the skills of the student. They expect them to hone those skills on their own. This leaves the student believing, since they just took a class and aced the test, that they are now fully prepared to apply that knowledge as a certified expert. We know otherwise.

Until the cost of training supports the actual time involved in learning and mastering a skill we will be turning out paper geniuses. Most students are, it seems to me, taught at too low a level. Partly because no one is supposed to fail and partly because if the course is too rigorous many would not buy another course. Working to the lowest common denominator is poor way to train people in survival skills.
RichH

 

[violamama]

I've done OW, and Nitrox. I'm signed up for drysuit, and after that I'm excited to do about five more.

At the really good dive shops in our area (4 out of the 7 here as far as I can tell), they ALL said they would be going above and beyond the book that comes with each course. They recommended reading and researching well before the week of the classes. Without these practical, instructor-driven courses, I would not have an opportunity to learn how to do these things right. We don't have a bunch of highly experienced dive friends/mentors, so we pay people to be that to us.

I don't have any problem with certifying agencies making SOME money off of me. I believe in capitalism, and hope that good courses will attract more people to diving.

Don't you think some of the requirements of cert cards comes from insurance concerns for everyone who facilitates diving? I guess that's another version of follow-the-money, and frankly I don't think that system is all nefarious, either.

ps. Our courses are spread between padi and ssi. I'd love to do gue sometime, too. We're equal opportunity lemmings when it comes to training and time with an instructor.

 

[rivers]

There are some courses that are actually quite useful, some that are just fluff and a way to get people to part with their hard-earned cash, and some that look to have been created for people to have a bit of fun while maybe re-hashing some skills that don't get used too often. I see the Zombie Apocalypse Diver course as the latter. From the course description, it sounds like it's a day to brush up on rescue and search and recovery skills, but adding a bit of zombie lore and make-up into the mix. It's capitalising on the current zombie craze to get people to go over rescue skills. It can't be a bad thing. There are quite a few shops, clubs, and at least one diving related facebook group in the UK that have an early season rescue weekend. Why not do it dressed as a zombie? I reckon it probably cost about the same as the rescue weekends. Let's face it, unless you're horribly unlucky, rescue and search and recovery skills aren't something that get used every dive, and unless you make it a point to practice them, they won't get used.
Things like boat and drift diving, just shouldn't exist.
Just my 2p on the subject.

 

[Steve_C]

Things like drift diving, just shouldn't exist.
.

Did first drift dive on day 1. Day 2 as we headed toward the boat I was told by instructor I was leading the dive. Then met 5 strangers. I learned a lot on that dive. I had 3 swimmers from Chicago who wanted to swim to cuba, I had two honey mooners who drifted along 30 ft above the bottom holding hands and looking into each other eyes. Keeping this group in eyesite with 3 surging ahead and 2 falling back took constant vigilence while towing the float. Then I learned how drifting but being anxious can really up your SAC. Plus all had to be done in a low key manner so that the paying dive customers were happy and got a full dive in. Great experience.

Doing a drift dive is easy. Leading a real drift dive with strangers and actually trying to keep the group together can be challenging.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I agree with Steve that drift diving is worthy of special training. I've been spending lots of time in the summers in Brockville, Ontario drifting the St. Lawrence River. The visibility is great, but not as good as the Caribbean. We have a strong drift, up and down drafts, eddies, and lots of lake freighters passing overhead as well as other boat traffic.

The thing is that a drift diving course in Mexico, the Florida Keys, or in a river like the Delaware won't necessarily prepare you for the St. Lawrence - especially if you are inexperienced. So, do we really need a certification course or can we just ensure safety by teaming up divers new to the area with a very experienced buddy until they feel capable of going it on their own?

Too many certification courses attempt to replace good mentoring with a formal class.