Has SCUBA training gone too far?

[TMHeimer]

Diving Dubai, I'm curious and lazy. If you do the PADI route through Rescue Diver, how does the total cost of this compare to the cost of a similar cert./qualification with BSAC?

 

[Leland_WB]

@OP Yea, it's mostly just to make money and pump up the reputation of PADI et al. as "official" dive organizations. Just take a look at Microsoft "certifications" and the like... just a money grab. There are a thousand different ways someone could learn how to dive better then taking a OW/AOW/etc.. course but unfortunately most of it cannot be easily "trusted" the way flashing a PADI card/certification can be. So PADI, etc.. just exploit their position as official well-known dive organizations and force dive shops to only accept x and x certified divers for doing x and x. Unfortunately, it seems adults these days cannot be trusted when their own safety is on the line. Eg. "yea, I know what i'm doing and can dive that wreck @ 65 feet" and then the dive shop owner says "ok, so where is your 'wreck diver(tm)' certification?"

It's bullocks, honestly. Every time I feel forced to flash my PADI card it feels like being treated as an idiot.

 

[DCBC]

...This is not an Agency bash:

It is my PERCEPTION that PADI break their courses into bite size chunks.

Different Agencies have different Standards. Historically, PADI Standards have been among the lowest in the industry. For example, when a minimum training time was allotted to the Diver/OW program, PADI required 27 hours, NAUI 44 hours and CMAS 45 hours.

Some agencies allow the Instructor to add to the course content (which is required for certification). PADI prohibits their Instructors from doing do. My OW course is currently 50-55 hours. Like you, this is NOT an Agency bash; simply the facts.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Diving Dubai, I'm curious and lazy. If you do the PADI route through Rescue Diver, how does the total cost of this compare to the cost of a similar cert./qualification with BSAC?

I'm no expert so I went online and took the prices from a resort in the Red sea that does both. For Equal comparison both were on site courses (not referral) with course materials (no E learning) All gear would be included as part of the course (typical of resort dive courses in the red sea/Maldives etc)

All Prices in USD as red sea courses are typically in Euro(I did the calculations on your behalf) Also I chose the On site fee rather than advanced booking which may be cheaper - I had no idea of the price difference before hand so wanted to ensure I gave you exact comparison


BSAC
Ocean Diver $440
Sports Diver $470
Total $910


PADI
Open Water $455
Advanced Open Water $393
Rescue $510

Total $1355

Note for clarification of others. these are resort prices (including equipment rental) but may well differ from clubs or local dive shops and are just here for comparison to answer a question


I would note here that if you did BSAC as part of a club you would get additional tuition but would also be incurring club fees etc. I suggest that carrying out the cert on a resort means you do the minimum training and theory required to pass

 

[dsdiving]

One certification Agency sliced up the diver training course in the late 60's and made OW, Advanced and Rescue courses to be offered separately. They added some content, but the 'Diver course' formed the basis of these programs and subsequently content was eliminated from their basic/OW course. This accomplished two major things:

1. It allowed a person to become a 'certified Diver' in less time and with less expense.

This appealed to people who wanted certification cheap and quick. The definition of what it meant to be a certified diver changed. The end result however, was that diving equipment sales greatly increased; one underlying reason why this change had occurred in the first-place.

2. The advantage for the Agency was that instead of processing one certification, their potential income (from a similar scope of training) increased by 300%.

Tripling business income could be seen as nothing else but a good business move. This Agency gained great advantage over its competition, which it still maintains today.

Not wanting to sit on its laurels, it applied this logic to other areas as well. They invented the specialty card and as you've mentioned, there's a specialty for everything. This results in more 'certifications' and more profit for the Agency, LDS and Instructor. Brilliant!!!

Have Agencies gone too far? From my perspective absolutely! Diver training standards have fallen to a degree where solo diving has become popular (or at least accepted). No longer can you reasonably expect competence from another diver, or for that matter an Instructor.

When your 'certified' Buddy may not know how to swim, or have any idea in how to do a submerged rescue, it's difficult to gain confidence. It seems that these are largely requirements of the past. In any case, the person can always come back for more training. Ching Ching

It is however hard to blame an industry; which like others is designed to maximize profits. Greed (good business) rules the day. It's also hard to blame the Clients. They don't know what they don't know and don't want to pay more, if they can get it for less. What 'it' is however, cannot be defined by their knowledge or experience. They often just trust the LDS. Welcome into the training system...

The idea of value has all but disappeared from our Society. People however seem to love badges. It somehow makes them feel accomplished. It meets a need, as they desire to feel safe and competent performing the activity.

All in all, I think most of it is a big scam... Divers do not require many of the courses they take today. A course is only one method of learning. Although it's quite often the most convenient method for many.

I recommend that people learn through a dive club and not an LDS, if this is available. From my experience, the training tends to be more comprehensive and less expensive for the Student in the long-run. Mentors are available and often numerous.

Pretty much sums it up for me. In my experience many of the Specialty Certs that I see Divers (after seeing how they dive) carrying around aren't worth the plastic they're printed on.

 

[fjpatrum]

There will always be those that want hand-holding and those that don't. Bitching about either side is a waste of time and energy. The justifications for either side are valid and it's just preference. I will get the certs required to do the dives I want to do. Nothing more, nothing less. Others like collecting cards, diving with a "pro", have less confidence, whatever. That's them and their wallet and it doesn't affect me in the slightest. To each their own.

Even if there weren't specialties, people would be paying "coaches" to teach them this stuff. Hell there are people who pay "life coaches" to teach them how to run their lives. Those are the people who buy these classes. As long as both parties are satisfied with the outcome who am I to judge it?

 

[Redshift]

Diving Dubai, I'm curious and lazy. If you do the PADI route through Rescue Diver, how does the total cost of this compare to the cost of a similar cert./qualification with BSAC?

I'm no expert so I went online and took the prices from a resort in the Red sea that does both. For Equal comparison both were on site courses (not referral) with course materials (no E learning) All gear would be included as part of the course (typical of resort dive courses in the red sea/Maldives etc)

All Prices in USD as red sea courses are typically in Euro(I did the calculations on your behalf) Also I chose the On site fee rather than advanced booking which may be cheaper - I had no idea of the price difference before hand so wanted to ensure I gave you exact comparison


BSAC
Ocean Diver $440
Sports Diver $470
Total $910


PADI
Open Water $455
Advanced Open Water $393
Rescue $510

Total $1355

Note for clarification of others. these are resort prices (including equipment rental) but may well differ from clubs or local dive shops and are just here for comparison to answer a question


I would note here that if you did BSAC as part of a club you would get additional tuition but would also be incurring club fees etc. I suggest that carrying out the cert on a resort means you do the minimum training and theory required to pass

Wow, those are prices of the courses done as a dive center and not a dive club. If you actually belong to a BSAC club, the fees are BSAC membership (which includes 3rd party insurance, magazine, discounts in BSAC shop and they even have several membership discounts) and is around 55 GBP plus club membership fees which vary a lot. I belonged to a club which didn't teach Ocean Diver and thus did not need to have a pool. It did have a RIB and some equipment (regs, BCDs, trimix analyzer...). The membership was 40 GBP per year. All the instruction is at cost. Manuals and card are paid to BSAC. Club instructors don't charge a thing.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Wow, those are prices of the courses done as a dive center and not a dive club. If you actually belong to a BSAC club, the fees are BSAC membership (which includes 3rd party insurance, magazine, discounts in BSAC shop and they even have several membership discounts) and is around 55 GBP plus club membership fees which vary a lot. I belonged to a club which didn't teach Ocean Diver and thus did not need to have a pool. It did have a RIB and some equipment (regs, BCDs, trimix analyzer...). The membership was 40 GBP per year. All the instruction is at cost. Manuals and card are paid to BSAC. Club instructors don't charge a thing.

Redshift is exactly correct in his statements. I too belong to a club and we pay $600 per year membership. For that we get free EAN/Air fills upto 100%. We by the scrubber material in bulk for the Rebreather guys which they get at cost (plus a tiny bit) and access to two boats from which diving is free. We used to have free Trimix fills too - but all the Techs have switched to rebreathers it seems. Obviously we have to have some income from membership to have money to keep the boats running, the rent on the clubhouse, compressor servicing and buying things like gas analysers etc.

We also have both PADI and BSAC instructors - the courses are free you just have to buy the course materials from the agency plus any certification charges that may be charged by the agency in question.

As others have said the advantage of club diving is the mentoring too - I have learnt so much more than I would by just taking courses - Although i predominately dive with my girlfriend (who has 400+ dives more than me) I also get to dive with friends who are all instructors with dive counts in the thousands where you benefit from new experiences and constructive criticism (if you ask) on each dive.

Club diving is so much better - but not available to everyone. Again I only placed the training prices up at the request of others and took the rest prices as a guide and direct comparison between the two.