Is it worth it?

[T.C.]

I have done a a big of surfing, and anything I have encountered yet with getting on and off a dive boat gas been less challenging than getting on and off a boat with a surf board. And the rest seems just common sense and curtesy.

You've got it. That's all there is to it.

On the other hand, there are things that others might consider trivial, but that I would want to get training in. Ice diving in the Great Lakes is certainly among them. Some might argue that it's just bardic line and reel handling but it still scares me because it's out of my comfort zone.

Ice diving is an overhead environment, and should be treated with the same care and rules as tech diving.

Similarly, I can see that a boat in a considerable swell is out of the comfort zone of someone who isn't used to rougher ocean conditions.

That's not covered in Boat Diver. That course just teachs you how to get on and off, it's not designed to deal with heavy sea states.

So I'm glad that the training opportunities are offered, but I'm not sure that everything needs it's own certification. Next we'll have to get the fish ID card before we can admire the aquatic life.

Don't give them any ideas.

It depends on what is actually covered. What skills are learned / drilled?

As far as I can determine; there are no new skills presented. So what is the value?

Some may see benefit to the novelty value of carrying the card. Who are you or I to say they are wrong? Their time, their money.

Only when it's clear that this is not needed. Far too many new divers step in and think they need a specialty for every type of diving. They waste their money and end up with a wallet full of nothing they will use.

Not trying to draw DIR in at all, except to point out that you are not being consistent. Does one size fit all? Are all divers the same, with the same learning, experience, capability, needs? Of course not.

There is nothing wrong with asking for or paying for training in anything, if that training is of value to the student. Nothing.

Yes, you were trying to draw it in. All divers are not the same. But no one needs these, in my opinion. It's just wasted money, and that's why I advise the new diver to steer clear.

That's why we have this forum. As experienced divers, we're here to offer the best advice. You can advise them to waste their money on something they'll never need, and I'll offer my opinion that they don't need, and will never need, a cert like boat diver.

That is it, right there, thank you. It IS ok to ask for help and advice - or as I put it "training or mentoring, whether formal or informal".The CERT is not needed, I don't think anyone has said otherwise. Help / advice / training / mentoring - call it what you will - MAY be needed. Nobody contemplating their first boat dive should feel looked down upon if their comfort level dictates they ask for help.

Nice try at changing your story. That was slickly done. But it's false.

There is a huge difference between saying this is your first boat dive, and asking a few questions, and paying good money for a worthless card. Buying a certification is not "asking for help", and a diver who is concerned about getting on a boat for the first time benefits far more from asking for for help from the crew or their buddy.

And contrary to your false implication, no one is going to look down on a diver asking for help, especially me.


Lowviz, we're still waiting for what your buddy teaches that is so special. I'd really like to know what makes his Boat Diver course so great.

 

[gcarter]

Nice try at changing your story. That was slickly done. But it's false.

There is a huge difference between saying this is your first boat dive, and asking a few questions, and paying good money for a worthless card. Buying a certification is not "asking for help", and a diver who is concerned about getting on a boat for the first time benefits far more from asking for for help from the crew or their buddy.

I most emphatically call bull****. My story has been entirely consistent and has not changed one iota. Nice try.

Your bias comes clearly through when you say "buying a certification". I just read the boat diving section in the Adventures in Diving manual out of curiosity. A bit of interesting information, but not something I would do a course to gain. If someone asked me if I thought they should do this course, I would ask them why they thought they needed it and my response would depend on their answer.

HOWEVER, if you feel you need it, asking for training or help - even if that means paying an instructor to dive with you - is not "buying a certification". It is paying for training. The determination of the value of that training rests with the student, not with me, and certainly not with you, regardless how much bluster you wish to visit upon us.

 

[lowviz]

...//... Lowviz, we're still waiting for what your buddy teaches that is so special. I'd really like to know what makes his Boat Diver course so great.

You poison the water that feeds SB. This is New Divers and Those Considering Diving.

This is not spec ops. This antagonism in this forum would never have gone this far if Marcia were still alive. This Forum WAS the safe haven for new divers. Everything was kid gloves. My prediction was that SB reverts to a frat club, nearly there. The mods on this forum have lost all focus.

What he teaches: How each boat operates, can sleep over on one, don't even think of boarding another until given permission. Where to put your gear, how to bungee your tanks. What to do if you are a hunter, what to do if you are a wrecker. How to do a roll off one boat, no dive platform. Have to ask for a granny line if you need one on another boat. How to drop off the platform on yet another so you hit the Catalina line. What to do if swept off the wreck in the shipping lanes we dive in. How to shoot a bag without un-nerving the captain that you might be drifting. Everything is tied in here, no live boats. Cutting loose is a BIG deal. Done, you aren't worth more...

 

[Redshift]

The value of a specialty depends on a large number of factors, how the initial instruction was (for instance, do they need buoyancy specialty if it has been properly covered during OW?), personal interest (fish ID is interesting for some and not so interesting for others), necessity (some things do require further training, nitrox, ice diving, etc...), mentoring (one of the things I like in training systems such as BSAC and CMAS is the fact that OW-level divers are often still accompanied by someone more experienced) which can turn a specialty into something completely unnecessary. That's, for example, how I started with dry suit. And that's even easier to do for boat diving.It wouldn't be advisable for someone with no experience to just show up alone for a boat dive, but if going with a more experienced buddy who can explain the procedure and give some guidance, then a specialty just to dive off a boat is a waste of money.
I think some people arguing here are focusing a bit on points which are specific of the places where they dive and the boats they've used. A boat diving specialty won't teach a diver about all the differences and you can see how even people who have been diving from boats are arguing about how to do something. Do you think a specialty would solve that? No. Go diving with someone, learn the basics and then pay attention and adapt to other situations. The same way a shore dive from a beach is different from a rocky shore or when there is surge or from a pier... Do you think you'd need a boat specialty because you've been mentioning the technique to go up a ladder if you come diving with me from RIBs which don't even have ladders? Now that's a skill to learn!

On the question of "has anyone been denied a boat dive because they lacked the boat diving card?", sort of... I've been to a dive center which wanted a shore dive before the boat dive... I started boat dives on my 3rd OW course dive... so I went somewhere else.
But I wouldn't have thought people would be asked for a dry suit specialty to rent a dry suit and they are, or for the necessity of some river diving specialty to dive a river as has been mentioned here already...
It's a big problem when the industry introduces new courses to make money and then they start to be seen as a necessity.

 

[T.C.]

What he teaches: How each boat operates, can sleep over on one, don't even think of boarding another until given permission. Where to put your gear, how to bungee your tanks. What to do if you are a hunter, what to do if you are a wrecker. How to do a roll off one boat, no dive platform. Have to ask for a granny line if you need one on another boat. How to drop off the platform on yet another so you hit the Catalina line. What to do if swept off the wreck in the shipping lanes we dive in. How to shoot a bag without un-nerving the captain that you might be drifting. Everything is tied in here, no live boats. Cutting loose is a BIG deal. Done, you aren't worth more...

Let's break this down:How each boat operates- Really? Every boat? Or just his? You get one or two boats, and there isn't a big difference.
can sleep over on one: What???
don't even think of boarding another until given permission: Common Sense.
Where to put your gear: Common Sense.
how to bungee your tanks: Common Sense.
What to do if you are a hunter: Common Sense. People doing this will already know what to do, and what questions to ask.
what to do if you are a wrecker: What??? What's a 'wrecker'???
How to do a roll off one boat, no dive platform: So...you get one boat of experience. Is that experience the same as off an RHIB, a zodiac, or panga?
Have to ask for a granny line if you need one on another boat: "Captain, can you please rig this line for me?" Was that hard; does it require another class to learn to talk to people?
How to drop off the platform on yet another so you hit the Catalina line: Common Sense.

What to do if swept off the wreck in the shipping lanes we dive in: This is a diving skill, not a boat skill.
How to shoot a bag without un-nerving the captain that you might be drifting: This is a diving skill, not a boat skill.

If I took this, I'd feel ripped off.

I most emphatically call bull****. My story has been entirely consistent and has not changed one iota. Nice try.

Yes, it has.

Your bias comes clearly through when you say "buying a certification".

Let's be clear; that's what it is. You will pay money. You will receive a certification. You will not fail out of the class. You buy a certification, that is what happens. You don't get it for free, you don't earn it. You buy it. You put down your money and in return you get a plastic card.

I just read the boat diving section in the Adventures in Diving manual out of curiosity. A bit of interesting information, but not something I would do a course to gain. If someone asked me if I thought they should do this course, I would ask them why they thought they needed it and my response would depend on their answer.

I would tell them no, and tell them exactly what I said here. Go on your planned trip, tell the Captain/crew that this is your first boat dive, and have fun. Use the $150 dollars you saved to buy a good dinner, and something you really need for diving.

HOWEVER, if you feel you need it, asking for training or help - even if that means paying an instructor to dive with you - is not "buying a certification". It is paying for training. The determination of the value of that training rests with the student, not with me, and certainly not with you, regardless how much bluster you wish to visit upon us.

That knowledge can be obtained in cheaper ways than paying an instructor so he can go diving. A few dives of experience can yield as much, and more knowledge than this class. If a new student pays for a Boat Diver class, does two dives and learns just as much as the new diver next to him that didn't pay; will he feel he got his money's worth? Or ripped off?

That's why we have this forum. To pass on our knowledge gained from experience. I paid for some certs that I didn't need as a new diver. I thought they'd be needed. They weren't. So, we can use this to pass it on to a new diver, so that they can pass on a worthless class.

 

[TMHeimer]

T.C. I must agree 100% with you on your list of "boat" skills.

 

[dmoore19]

Why would anyone care if another person wanted to take a course on boat diving or even basket weaving for that matter? If a person thinks they can learn something who cares what someone else thinks?

If it gives them a feeling of comfort, achievement or confidence why would anyone be against that?

Scuba is an individual sport in so many ways. So many different conditions, styles, gear choice etc, it would be difficult to pinpoint exactly what is best for anyone. What is best is usually nothing more than an opinion.

 

[T.C.]

If it gives them a feeling of comfort, achievement or confidence why would anyone be against that? Scuba is an individual sport in so many ways. So many different conditions, styles, gear choice etc, it would be difficult to pinpoint exactly what is best for anyone. What is best is usually nothing more than an opinion.

No one is "against" it, but I'm giving my opinion to a new diver that they will get by just fine without buying this certification.

In my opinion, the vast list of certifications, at $100-$200 apiece, is nothing more than an attempt to snag a few more dollars from a new diver who may be under the impression that they need a boat diver card to dive from a boat, a night diver card to dive at night, a drift diver card to drift dive...the list goes on.

I'd rather see them hold onto their money, and not be bitter about having bought a cert they'll never need.

 

[dmoore19]

So would you prefer that the agencies discontinue the courses? You don't seem to assign them any value.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I would argue that for some people there may well be value. We don't all learn the same way, and we certainly don't all dive in the same conditions.

No one is "against" it, but I'm giving my opinion to a new diver that they will get by just fine without buying this certification.

In my opinion, the vast list of certifications, at $100-$200 apiece, is nothing more than an attempt to snag a few more dollars from a new diver who may be under the impression that they need a boat diver card to dive from a boat, a night diver card to dive at night, a drift diver card to drift dive...the list goes on.

I'd rather see them hold onto their money, and not be bitter about having bought a cert they'll never need.

 

[T.C.]

So would you prefer that the agencies discontinue the courses? You don't seem to assign them any value.You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I would argue that for some people there may well be value. We don't all learn the same way, and we certainly don't all dive in the same conditions.

Their value is relative, I made that clear. I would prefer that it is made clear that no diver will be denied a boat ride, night dive, drift dive or wreck dive because they don't have the appropriate card. This is why we get these questions, because the new divers believe they need them.

But there are the unscrupulous shops that continue to push these cards as necessary. One thing I would change is allowing instructors to invent their own specialties. If they find a gap in training, they should submit these courses for review and inclusion into the standard curriculum offered.