3-Day Open Water Certification?

[flots am]

SSI Standards are 32 hours? Is that 16 class 16 pool? And do you ever find students dropping out or not finishing? There are not a fixed number of ow dives just an hour requirement? Are there pool time/ow hour counts required?

Jim does SEI, not SSI.

Although I haven't read the latest changes, last time I checked, it was possible to do a really fast class and not violate standards with SSI. They pretty much follow PADI now.

 

[boulderjohn]

Jim does SEI, not SSI.

Although I haven't read the latest changes, last time I checked, it was possible to do a really fast class and not violate standards with SSI. They pretty much follow PADI now.

PADI made significant changes to the OW program this year. Before that the programs were pretty much identical, following the RSTC guidelines. When I was certified in the 1990s, I borrwoed an SSI book prior to the PADI class. The only difference I noticed was that SSI recommended a 30 FPM ascent rate, and PADI used 60 FPM.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Now I watch this debate from my perch going through IDC and serving as a CA for instructors at my LDS. We do OW in two weekends: class-pool Sat, ocean Sun, pool Sat, ocean Sun. Students complete eLearning and all academic work prior to the first weekend. Instructors vary in their interpretation of mastery learning, but one constant I have noticed is that smaller classes get better instruction, period. Even two CAs can't do much to make up for the fact that there are 12 students in a class with one instructor at times. Class size translates into time in a significant way. With two, three, four students there is more than sufficient time to repeat skills in different settings, play games, etc. With 8 and up it's a struggle to get through the skills, particularly if one or more students have serious trouble. But we'll hold people back who haven't met standards, and almost all instructors will do extra work to help remediate. But remedial work outside of scheduled classes costs instructor time, which equals money. With true terrors, we have pulled folks aside and said, you will have to take private lessons to finish your course.

So ever so slightly OT but valid all the same given thus is a training discussion. Steve's post above to me also sums up all that is wrong with trying. Steve has done nothing wrong and is probable a nice guy but I'll use him as an example to make a point. Here we have a DM and now and IDC candidate who has less than 100 dive, give his 4 year experience that could be just 25 dives a year. Now I've just come off a liveaboards and my first dive guid (also a DM and also studying his IDC) had only 120 dives (in two years). While he had all the diving skills off pat the big thing that was missing was experience. All those little tricks you pick up from hours in the water. Also I remember my dive instructor as well as my time as an engineering instructor, part of the teaching technique is to add to the student knowledge by imparting your own base on hard earned experience.

Only as I approach dive 200 made in benign environments such as the Red Sea and Thailand, as well as more challenging places like Indonesia and the Mussandam do I feel ready to step up to DM and then instructor. I had the skills a while ago(not to demonstration standard) but felt I lacked the experience. Even so I'd be out of my depth teaching in cold murky waters.

as it happens I had a 4 day resort OW course and fortunately 10 days diving post course to hone my basic skills, but it was still only a base from which a lot more was required to prepare me for blue water diving with confidence, a lot of the tips I got were from my instructor who had plus 1000 dive at the time. While agencies allow people to instruct who have only 100 hrs of dive time then the students won't get as good a course as if they had someone with more experience, no matter how long the training

 

[RJP]

When I was in my 20's my father had all sorts of CV issues, and my dr started saying things like "Your BP is up a little, let's watch it." After a couple of years of that, I said "Let's not. You're a doctor. Fix it."

"Watchful waiting" we called it. Years ago I did some research looking at the psychology of that behavior among physicians. Interestingly, physicians who intervene immediately on things like cholesterol, hypertension, diabetes, etc (Even if the initial intervention is an adamant recommendation of lifestyle modification prior to beginning drug therapy) have patients who are FAR MORE compliant with medication compared to physicians whose approach is to "watch it for a while."

The "watchful waiting" approach sends a strong "don't worry about it today" message to patients, which they carry forward as an "I can do something about it tomorrow" approach to treatment. Of course, tomorrow never comes.

 

[flots am]

"Watchful waiting" we called it. Years ago I did some research looking at the psychology of that behavior among physicians. Interestingly, physicians who intervene immediately on things like cholesterol, hypertension, diabetes, etc (Even if the initial intervention is an adamant recommendation of lifestyle modification prior to beginning drug therapy) have patients who are FAR MORE compliant with medication compared to physicians whose approach is to "watch it for a while."

The "watchful waiting" approach sends a strong "don't worry about it today" message to patients, which they carry forward as an "I can do something about it tomorrow" approach to treatment. Of course, tomorrow never comes.

"Watching" never seemed like a really effective strategy. It's not like anything good was going to happen.

flots.

 

[The Chairman]

Wow. This is an interesting thread.

I teach a very efficient three day course. A 4 hour pool session the first day. Three hours the second day, followed with a couple of hours doing open water dives in the afternoon at Cannon Beach. The next day we go out on a boat for our final dives. Some students need to spread it out a bit more, but most do just this.

It's my humble opinion that simply spending more time in the water does not make the class any better. It's not only what you teach, but how you teach it. It's not that they are bad instructors: they are just time wasters. Unfortunately, they don't even realize that they are wasting so much time nor can they see how many instructors have streamlined the process to turn out better divers in less time. They often say that they are "Old School", which really only means they haven't evolved much since they learned how to dive. Some students love these plodding old ways, but many more resent spending inordinate amounts of time on a hobby which in turn takes away from family and vacations.

So, the next time you read someone essentially telling you that "you're going to die" by taking a short course, don't take it at face value. Instructors, just like students, are different. Some take a really, really long time to teach what I do in three days. They may be hatin' on my three day schedule, but that's OK by me. I and my students are having fun.

 

[ScubaSteve_SoCal]

So ever so slightly OT but valid all the same given thus is a training discussion. Steve's post above to me also sums up all that is wrong with trying. Steve has done nothing wrong and is probable a nice guy but I'll use him as an example to make a point. Here we have a DM and now and IDC candidate who has less than 100 dive, give his 4 year experience that could be just 25 dives a year. Now I've just come off a liveaboards and my first dive guid (also a DM and also studying his IDC) had only 120 dives (in two years). While he had all the diving skills off pat the big thing that was missing was experience. All those little tricks you pick up from hours in the water. Also I remember my dive instructor as well as my time as an engineering instructor, part of the teaching technique is to add to the student knowledge by imparting your own base on hard earned experience.

Due respect, you know zero about my diving, demonstration, or instructional capabilities, nor the types and variety of diving I've engaged in, nor the degree of awareness I have about my capability - and my limits.

By the way, you didn't actually address my substantive comments about diving and instruction, instead choosing to lob an irrelevant personal attack based on (your perception of) my diving history. So what about my -post- sums up everything wrong with training?

 

[cocoajoe]

If a chicken can pull a wagon, I say hitch 'em up!

 

[Storker]

It's my humble opinion that simply spending more time in the water does not make the class any better.

OTOH, learning retention is generally better if you spread the curriculum out over a longer period. I've never taught diving, but I have a hard time believing that SCUBA instruction is unique in that respect.

 

[The Chairman]

OTOH, learning retention is generally better if you spread the curriculum out over a longer period. I've never taught diving, but I have a hard time believing that SCUBA instruction is unique in that respect.

There's a law of diminishing returns. I've seen a lot of bored dive students and the instructor just didn't have a clue. Boredom kills the ability to learn like nothing else. Busy work does not always improve skills if the student does not feel challenged. It breeds arrogance and complacency and those are a dangerous combination for divers.

It's been my experience that challenging the student early and often creates the best learning experience. It's why I tackle trim and neutral buoyancy first and then build on that, constantly challenging them to master each skill and then moving on before it becomes boring to them. It just doesn't require close to twenty hours for most people. Moreover, if they just can't get a skill, I leave it and come back to it later. Frustration, boredom, fatigue and cold all take away from a student's ability to enjoy and learn. If they aren't having fun then they just aren't learning effectively. Learning should not be painful.

Every instructor is different. Some enjoy the drill instructor mentality and rigor defines their classes. That doesn't mean their classes don't or can't have fun, but their focus is not on the fun of diving. If you don't dive their way, you will surely die and they will decry anyone who teaches differently from them. Some instructors are simply lazy. They often rest on the laurels of their training agency and will skip skills that are essential to being safe. I could go on with the various other types of instructors there are out there, but suffice it to say that I don't belong in either of these two groups. My major emphasis is to put my students in control of their diving in a fun and enjoyable environment. My second rule of diving, is that you can call a dive at any time, for any reason, no questions asked and no repercussions. That includes training dives and I impress upon them, that if they are not having fun for any reason, then we need to stop and evaluate what the problem is preventing their fun.

No, not every diver wants to learn from me and I certainly don't want to teach everyone. If you want "Old School" then I am not your Huckleberry. If you want an innovative, fun time and learning tailored to you then I might just be the instructor for you. I promise that you won't be bored and that you'll have impeccable trim and buoyancy when we finish. If you need longer, we'll take longer. But then, I won't keep you in the pool any longer than you need, just to live up to some hackneyed standard from how "they" did it, long ago. It's why I don't teach in a horse collar BC and double hose regulator. Something better replaced them. It may have been OK back in the day, but the modern methods are simply better for the diver and the instructor.