double tank equipment

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I saw someone fill their "tanks" with the isolator closed. They realized it a few hundred miles from home, at the dive op, and decided to leave it closed and get the other tank filled. Two different mixes. He treated them as Independent Doubles. This was a rec-only trip, so he dove one on one dive and then the other on the second dive. I thought it was pretty clever! :wink:

If they are nominally the same mix, I don't see why it would matter. Open isolator, dive and move on with life. Diving one tank on one dive and then the other tank on the next dive has its own complications - however minor you might deem them to be.
 
If they are nominally the same mix, I don't see why it would matter. Open isolator, dive and move on with life. Diving one tank on one dive and then the other tank on the next dive has its own complications - however minor you might deem them to be.
They weren't close. Ean32 vs "almost air."
 
They weren't close. Ean32 vs "almost air."

I know I just said otherwise but if getting new fills was practically not possible and the dive was not pushing depth limits of 32% or NDL limits for air, I would have open the isolator and would have gone diving.

Diving manifolded doubles as independent doubles on a whim like that has its own gotchas. Gotta weigh what situation you would prefer to be in, diving with a funky mix between air and 32 or diving where one of your regs and the inflator is not available on one dive and the other reg and the spg is not available on the other dive. Seems like the latter is bigger mess than the former.

Edit: Never mind. I just realized that there is no reason not to leave both posts open even if you are diving the tanks independently. I still would have just opened the isolator. This way, I always have the longhose in my mouth and in an emergency, my buddy goes to the reg in my mouth.
 
I know I just said otherwise but if getting new fills was practically not possible and the dive was not pushing depth limits of 32% or NDL limits for air, I would have open the isolator and would have gone diving.

Yeah, he was deco trained, he changed his gases between dives, and the floor was 90ft where many were diving air. Both valves stayed on, and he put a second SPG on his right post while on the boat. He didn't have enough time to dump and equalize and fill (weird situation).

I'm not advocating it, I'm just saying I've seen it. He analyzed both independently, kept ensuring his manifold was closed, and did him some pretty easy dives....most of us were diving single tanks of air or 28%, so he had an advantage either way you look at it. The other way to have done it would have been to equalize the tanks as much as possible, top them off with air (or 32% or whatever) and then dive them with MOD for 32% and air NDLs (or some other low-percentage nitrox mix's NDLs).

I was just laughing at a story, not advocating this as general practice....
 
I think Tobin and others have adequately explained the physical processes involved with filling tanks, discussed the likely affects on the mixing of not having the isolator open during filling, and the theoretical fact that eventually, (and that is the key word), the gasses will mix. BUT for anyone who doesn't dive manifolded doubles, partial pressure blend gasses and so on, who is reading this thread EVENTUALLY is not good enough.

Potentially if you have had a incorrect done fill with the iso closed, and just open it and then go diving, there is a potential to be breathing unmixed gasses, and that could mean you are breathing either very high ppo2 oxygen, or very high ppo2 helium, and either of those situations could get you dead in very short order.

So regardless of the semantics some people are arguing here, this is bad for you, could get you killed and it is much better to learn how to do it right, then analyse the mix and dive it safely.

The uncertainties are what have got quite a few people killed, along with wrong markings on tanks, incorrect mods, and so on. In my view this is one case where I couldn't give a hoot about "eventually" or the niceties of gas laws or physics. I want to know the fill has been done correctly, with the valves all in the right position, so I know what I am diving and won't get any nasty surprises.

I also have to say that in Victors example above I would't dive doubles with a different mix in them, if all my intended diving was within the mod of the higher gas, then I would have opened the iso, as soon as I realised, analysed both posts before diving, and if they hadn't mixed evenly by the time I dived I would have used the richer gas to determine mod, and the leaner gas to determine ndl's and learn't from experience. - Phil.
 
Potentially if you have had a incorrect done fill with the iso closed, and just open it and then go diving, there is a potential to be breathing unmixed gasses, and that could mean you are breathing either very high ppo2 oxygen, or very high ppo2 helium, and either of those situations could get you dead in very short order.

Lot of choices one can make out of the water, only one choice in the water, if you discover a closed ISO, thumb it.

I've said it once, but it bears repeating; a fill with a closed ISO betrays a potentially unqualified fill station operator, or worse an unqualified blender. Might be a simple oversight of an over tasked but qualified guy, or it might be the wrong guy has keys to the compressor shed.

What else is in your tanks?

Did you analyze for He too? O2 analyzers only tell you the fraction of O2

Does this shop fill argon bottles? If so do they use the same booster? Was the booster purged after the last argon fill?

Is the closed Iso part of a pattern of poor practices, too long intervals on filter changes / air tests etc.?

Long list of horribles to keep you awake nights and *out of the water* if you discover the Iso was closed at the fill station.

Of course an open Iso doesn't mean everything on my list is perfect either. Key reason why I am particular about where and who fills my tanks. Kinda like entering a Restaurant through the kitchen.

I do like building my own fills *a lot*


Tobin
 
Why do you think that mixing would take place in the second stage and not the hose going to the second stage, the first stage or the manifold with the manifold being the first place the gases come together when purging the second stage.

As this has shifted to a practical discussion vs a theoretical one, it really doesn't matter, as there is no practical reason to put a regulator on a set of doubles with different mixes in each tank. But I'll ask anyway.
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I didn't post the mixing takes place in the 2nd stage, I posted it takes place within the regulator. I thought I was posting in the Advanced site so I didn't think anyone would make the assumption that I was referring to mixing in the 2nd stage, but it would be easier to check what comes out of the second stage than what is in the 1st stage don't you think?

I thought we were discussing 2 tanks one with 100% O2 and 1 with 100% helium minimal mixing would happen in the manifold but the 1st stage would be receiving two kinds of gases and some mixing would happen within the 1st stage.. I was thinking it would be experimental to check what the %'s of each gas coming out of the 2nd stage would be, not some kind of halfassed attempt to fix to a bad fill.

I get a bad nitrox fill, it's a do over or I don't pay.
 
Lot of choices one can make out of the water, only one choice in the water, if you discover a closed ISO, thumb it.

I've said it once, but it bears repeating; a fill with a closed ISO betrays a potentially unqualified fill station operator, or worse an unqualified blender. Might be a simple oversight of an over tasked but qualified guy, or it might be the wrong guy has keys to the compressor shed.

What else is in your tanks?

Did you analyze for He too? O2 analyzers only tell you the fraction of O2

Does this shop fill argon bottles? If so do they use the same booster? Was the booster purged after the last argon fill?

Is the closed Iso part of a pattern of poor practices, too long intervals on filter changes / air tests etc.?

Long list of horribles to keep you awake nights and *out of the water* if you discover the Iso was closed at the fill station.

Of course an open Iso doesn't mean everything on my list is perfect either. Key reason why I am particular about where and who fills my tanks. Kinda like entering a Restaurant through the kitchen.

I do like building my own fills *a lot*


Tobin

Totally agree - that is why I did the courses to get qualified as both a compressor operator and a mixed gas blender for nitrox and trimix. I don't have a ticket to dive trimix, but at least I know how to mix it safely. My local club has a banked nitrox/trimix blending panel so I get a lot of practice for other people. :)
 
I didn't post the mixing takes place in the 2nd stage, I posted it takes place within the regulator. I thought I was posting in the Advanced site so I didn't think anyone would make the assumption that I was referring to mixing in the 2nd stage, but it would be easier to check what comes out of the second stage than what is in the 1st stage don't you think?

Personally, I analyze on tank valve (or orifice or whatever the thing is called that you put the first stage on) if the regs are not installed. This is always the case when I pick up my tanks from the dive shop.

I analyze on a low pressure inflator hose if possible (backgas tanks) when I have regs installed.

In any case, I assume that the reading at the tank valve will be the same as the analysis on the second stage.


I thought we were discussing 2 tanks one with 100% O2 and 1 with 100% helium minimal mixing would happen in the manifold but the 1st stage would be receiving two kinds of gases and some mixing would happen within the 1st stage.. I was thinking it would be experimental to check what the %'s of each gas coming out of the 2nd stage would be, not some kind of halfassed attempt to fix to a bad fill.

I get a bad nitrox fill, it's a do over or I don't pay.

I wonder if anyone has any *actual* data or *real life* experience with this. The only way I could see a set of doubles having O2 in once cylinder and 100% He in the other is if someone filled them that way on purpose. There are too many steps involved for the doubles to wind up in this state for this to have been inadvertent.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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