C Cards Requirement or Recommendation?

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

60 matters some places but not so much in others. Most of the dive sites I dive off NC the bottom is 80-100 ft. I see lots of OW divers on the 80ft dives and some on the 100 ft dives such as our ledges. A popular dive with NEW OW divers is the Hyde. Bottom at 80-85. Top deck at 60. A typical dive may spend some time at 60, some time at 80-85, some time back up at 60. I have instabuddied with new OW divers on the Hyde and they had maybe 4-6 quarry dives prior to our meeting up. And now a there are usually two dives a trip and the SI is about an hour. Second sometimes on the Markham where you are varying from 40 on top to 85 in the sand but everybody hits the sand to see the big props.

Those dives should not be permitted whether the guy has a computer or not. If we are giving people computers so that they may violate the limits set by their training then that requires a different discussion, much serious than the one we are having. Now if an open water diver accidentally loses buoyancy then that is a situation that he can easily address without having a computer. Every 10 feet of unintentional buoyancy loss below 60 takes 10 minutes off your max time of 60 minutes. 70 ft will mean dive will now last 50 minutes and 80 feet will mean dive will last 40 minutes instead of 60.

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Discussion split from Are Dive Computers making bad divers? thread (Bowlofpetunias Sr Mod)

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[Steve_C]

Those dives should not be permitted whether the guy has a computer or not. If we are giving people computers so that they may violate the limits set by their training then that requires a different discussion, much serious than the one we are having. Now if an open water diver accidentally loses buoyancy then that is a situation that he can easily address without having a computer. Every 10 feet of unintentional buoyancy loss below 60 takes 10 minutes off your max time of 60 minutes. 70 ft will mean dive will now last 50 minutes and 80 feet will mean dive will last 40 minutes instead of 60.

I am not advocating anything one way or another but if you think divers whose highest cert is OW are only diving to 60 ft until they get their AOW you are in fantasy land. I see them at 70 and 80 all the time and sometimes with a bit more experience at 100 ft. Most boats do not require an AOW if you can show a previous dive to 80 ft (or whatever) assuming they check that. So once you have done it a couple times they are legit with that.

Note that this has nothing to do with computers per se although all have computers that I see on these types of dives. What is the difference. They could look at a table and see they have X minutes.

 

[phoenix31tt]

Those dives should not be permitted whether the guy has a computer or not. If we are giving people computers so that they may violate the limits set by their training then that requires a different discussion, much serious than the one we are having. Now if an open water diver accidentally loses buoyancy then that is a situation that he can easily address without having a computer. Every 10 feet of unintentional buoyancy loss below 60 takes 10 minutes off your max time of 60 minutes. 70 ft will mean dive will now last 50 minutes and 80 feet will mean dive will last 40 minutes instead of 60.

AFAIK this is not a limit but a recommendation... could be wrong but i believe that's what my certification said. Additionally, if it was a limit, it's not the computers that permit them to violate it as they would be able to do the same dives without a computer.

---------- Post added December 12th, 2015 at 02:32 AM ----------

 

[The Chairman]

Those dives should not be permitted whether the guy has a computer or not.

... and so the Scuba Police were born.

if we are giving people computers so that they may violate the limits set by their training then that requires a different discussion, much serious than the one we are having. Now if an open water diver accidentally loses buoyancy then that is a situation that he can easily address without having a computer.

"Violate"??? Most AOW courses do little to adequately prepare a diver to really go deeper. Mine sure didn't. Experience is a far better instructor for most people and I really don't have an issue with OW divers working themselves deeper although too many make too big of a jump. There's little difference between a 60 or 80 foot dive if the diver has adequate situational awareness. If they don't have the latter, they shouldn't have gotten their OW card to begin with.

In my mind, it's more problematic that you accept an OW diver losing buoyancy and don't see that as worthy of a serious discussion. Trying to remember your arcane rules about how you handle NDLs they didn't plan for while getting more narc'ed and also dealing with serious bouyancy issues sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. How much overload do you think they can handle, especially if they don't have the most basic of skill sets down? They need an "easy" button, not a "let's over complicate this" button.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

... and so the Scuba Police were born.
.

When I go for my nitrox fill, the LDS will refuse to fill my tank unless I show them my Nitrox certification card. I can always try to convince the LDS that there is no such thing as scuba police because according my online buddies on scubaboard, the entire scuba industry is actually a self-regulatory industry where scuba police does not exist and that "certification card" that they are demanding from everyone is in fact a "recommendation card!" This rhetoric that generates a shocking volume of applause on internet forums will not get me a nitrox fill once I get off the internet.

 

[AdivingBel]

When I go for my nitrox fill, the LDS will refuse to fill my tank unless I show them my Nitrox certification card. I can always try to convince the LDS that there is no such thing as scuba police because according my online buddies on scubaboard, the entire scuba industry is actually a self-regulatory industry where scuba police does not exist and that "certification card" that they are demanding from everyone is in fact a "recommendation card!" This rhetoric that generates a shocking volume of on internet forums will not get me a nitrox fill once I get off the internet.

Captain, we've all been down this road before (many times on your threads). In the U.S. (and Caribbean and many other places) you get an OW to get air fills, rent gear, and dive with ops. You get nitrox to get nitrox fills. You get AOW to cover dive ops so they know you've been below 60 ft. at least once for "advanced" dives (if they choose to impose this restriction, their boat their rules). There are plenty of depth limits for training and general recommendations for diving, but that is all they are, recommendations for recreational NDL diving down to 130 ft.. You're just being obtuse (or maybe sarcastic or both, not sure which).

 

[The Chairman]

When I go for my nitrox fill, the LDS will refuse to fill my tank unless I show them my Nitrox certification card. I can always try to convince the LDS that there is no such thing as scuba police because according my online buddies on scubaboard, the entire scuba industry is actually a self-regulatory industry where scuba police does not exist and that "certification card" that they are demanding from everyone is in fact a "recommendation card!" This rhetoric that generates a shocking volume of applause on internet forums will not get me a nitrox fill once I get off the internet.

I don't carry a NitrOx card and get fills all the time, from pretty much anywhere. In fact, I dove for over thirty years without a C-card of any kind. Most shops can smell BS when it walks through the door.

As a final surprise, and please don't tell anyone you heard this from me...

Spoiler

There's no such thing as the Scuba Police!

 

[scubadada]

I don't carry a NitrOx card and get fills all the time, from pretty much anywhere. In fact, I dove for over thirty years without a C-card of any kind. Most shops can smell BS when it walks through the door.

As a final surprise, and please don't tell anyone you heard this from me...

Spoiler

There's no such thing as the Scuba Police!

No place where I dive frequently, asks for a card. On the other hand, all new operators ask me for both my dive card and my nitrox card. Get real, even if you are NetDoc

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I don't carry a NitrOx card and get fills all the time, from pretty much anywhere. In fact, I dove for over thirty years without a C-card of any kind. Most shops can smell BS when it walks through the door.

As a final surprise, and please don't tell anyone you heard this from me...

Spoiler

There's no such thing as the Scuba Police!

If you ever get on a Southern California dive boat, have your C-card and Nitrox cards ready, because you WILL NOT be diving without some sort of C-card, and you WILL NOT be getting any Nitrox without some sort of card. You will be filling out paperwork and they will physically check your cards.
Just wanted to mention it in case you were thinking of diving here. I'd hate to see you come all that way to be benched.

 

[boulderjohn]

If you ever get on a Southern California dive boat, have your C-card and Nitrox cards ready, because you WILL NOT be diving without some sort of C-card, and you WILL NOT be getting any Nitrox without some sort of card. You will be filling out paperwork and they will physically check your cards.
Just wanted to mention it in case you were thinking of diving here. I'd hate to see you come all that way to be benched.

I was at an ocean conservation conference a couple years ago and heard this story. The speaker was on a week-long dive trip in Australia back in the 1960s, when dive certification was relatively new and uncertified divers much more common. The boat captain asked to see everyone's certification cards, and the speaker did not have one. He told the captain that his father had taught him to die when he was 7 years old, and he had done thousands of dives since then. No dice. If he didn't have a card, he couldn't dive. He could just sit on the boat all week and reflect upon the fact that wasted time.

Luckily for him, crew members intervened, and the captain finally agreed to make an exception in this case and this case only. When he returned to the USA, he went to the local PADI shop and got a certification card so he would not have to go through it again. He was still carrying that card when he spoke.

His name was Jean-Michel Cousteau.