Scooter recommendation

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The DPV dominates the diver's field of view. The diver needs to hold on to it, occupying their hands, even when he stops using it. It makes a fair amount of noise (though not as bad as some other DPVs I heard). If the DPV dies on the dive, it becomes a big liability, incumbering the diver's ability to swim out of the situation. It is VERY expensive. The batteries could short and burn your house down. You can't take it on a plane with you to Hawaii. It adds a lot of size and weight of equipment when dealing with getting kitted up and in the water. Etc, etc, etc....

You can see my data, videos and such here: DOL-Fin Technology - Smith Aerospace

My 2 knot cruise speed streamlined scuba kit is covered in Part 3 of the "Beyond Drag" series.

I think your experience with scooters especially the high end tech scooters is very limited. There is no way that a human propelling themselves through the water by their own power can remotely do what can be done on a very basic tech scooter such as a UV18 let alone what is being done on the high end scooters. Each to their own but I definitely disagree with your premise.
 
I know I'm going to open a can of crap with this one but for all of you putting down Gavin Scooters let me tell you something!
I LOVE MY GAVIN SCOOTER!!!
I have been diving with my WKPP Gavin dpv for years... I't has been super reliable and as never let me down.
Yes I can't deny it's heavy compared to new ones, BUT I love how simple and easy to maintain it really is. Basically I can walk into a home depot and get all I need to repair it except for minor things that I can get from my local electric supply store. Granted all my diving is mostly 90% salt water and I no longer cave dive. My scooter has been down to depths of well over 200 feet with no problems. I have the higher rpm motor in it and so far I'm yet to dive with other divers and their dpv's who can keep up with me and my double steel 100's on my back except for my dive buddy who also has a Gavin.
Now, don't take me wrong... My scooter is not all stock... Because of how simple it is made and straight forward design I have made some inexpensive updates over the years like the seals, bearings, motor brushes and replaced the batteries recently. All that done for a couple of hundred dollars and just because it was winter and gave me something to do. The scooter was working fine when I got it. Someone I know has a problem with his Hollis scooter and is now in debt for over $1000. I have replaced the clutch with a new clutch from DGE that has the zinc on it just because I dive salt water a lot and do have spare props and assembly as a backup but so far did not need to change them yet.

The beautiful thing is I paid $950 for it and with updates it cost me so far TOPS $1500 (including the $950). I do maintain it very well and keep it in top shape. I just purchased a SS mechanical water seal for it for $35 and will be replacing it this winter as a precaution and because SS is better for salt water.

Sure we all love the new toys and there's no doubt I do to, but Gavin's, well maintained, can be good reliable machines too.


I agree with nearly everything you said except I much prefer the SS UV scooters over a Gavin. You are in the same ballpark ($100-$200) for a used UV18 and they don't have to be modified especially if they have the new motor in them. I think many people are overlooking these old work horses and the thing is once you really start doing long scooter dives you need a backup anyway.
 
Have I been to the Tahoe Benchmark? Yes, I have.

A diver can be very skilled at using a DPV and to a lot with it. John Henry could do a lot with a sledgehammer too. I still think a DPV is a crude solution. There is nothing graceful or imaginative about it, and it is new kit that tends to dominate the dive.
This diver moves too slow... Hmmm, lets add a disembodied electric trolling motor to drag them through the water.
What's elegant about that?
What's "elegant, graceful, and imaginative" has nothing to do with anything.

I can go faster for longer with more gear and less effort than when swimming. That's really the bottom line. You can be as "elegant" as you want and if you can't keep up then who cares how you look?
 
This diver moves too slow... Hmmm, lets add a disembodied electric trolling motor to drag them through the water.
What's elegant about that?

Same argument could be made of almost any tool we humans choose to use. In the end, elegance is in the eye of the beholder.
 
Ugh...I read Revan's "beyond drag" stuff. As a former competitive swimmer, I get that streamlining is important, and I know that freedivers with monofins can move a LOT faster than a loaded tech diver on a scooter.

But...what I really don't get is his continued push for his way of diving. He tries to make the case that a diver NEEDS to be able to move at 2 knots to be able to function effectively as a diver in the open water, but I call BS on that. Never has a lack of speed been my problem in an open water dive. As a recreational diver, the best thing I ever learned to do was slow down - not speed up. You see more of everything going slow. As such, I see no real advantage in the uber streamlining of my gear for recreational diving - as it doesn't provide enough drag to make any practical impairment to the diving I am doing. The only practical use I can think of for what he is pushing is for speardiving. Covering more ground quickly and quietly is very good in that application. But if I'm looking at sealife and relaxing? No thanks.

As a tec diver and as a rebreather diver, I absolutely understand the importance of a scooter, and find the concept of streamlining that kit down to a level that a scooter is not necessary downright laughable. Please tell me how I can achieve scooter speeds at a low SAC rate or low CO2 generation rate by streamlining my drysuit and the multitude of tanks and safety equipment I'm carrying by using a monofin - all while allowing me the ability to back up and to helicopter turn - so I don't get myself into trouble while cave diving. I won't hold my breath waiting for his answer.

Now as far as the topic of this thread? The OP stated that he wanted a scooter for now, that he would like to continue to use once he starts diving tec in the future. In that case, I don't think any of the initial 3 scooters he mentioned are worth buying, since none of them are good as tec scooters. Depending on the time until he moves to tec, maybe it would be worth getting a scooter for open water fun. I have been considering the aquaprop for just that purpose. But if he is planning on making the jump sooner rather than later, it might be worth saving more money and buying a scooter that will be usable in a tec role. The suex 14, gavins, cudas, pirhanas, etc, are all viable options.

If you're worried about the cost of a scooter, I promise, there is more to hurt you financially in tec diving than the scooter purchase. Between the extra tanks, regs, and cost of training, the scooter is just another line item on the budget. But here's more bad news...once you get to a point with your tec diving that you NEED a scooter, you actually need 2. Because if one fails, you will need another way to get home from whatever spot you managed to drag yourself to.

So my suggestion - buy once, cry once, but don't but something that won't fulfill the purpose of a tec scooter if you already know you are heading in a tec direction. That way, you will have a functional and effective scooter available immediately for some fun and light use at the start of your tec career, and you will already have your backup scooter when you need to get something that has more oomph down the road. Of course - going fast at the beginning of your tec career isn't always a great idea either if you value your safety! :wink:
 
Never has a lack of speed been my problem in an open water dive. As a recreational diver, the best thing I ever learned to do was slow down - not speed up. You see more of everything going slow. As such, I see no real advantage in the uber streamlining of my gear for recreational diving
As a tec diver and as a rebreather diver, I absolutely understand the importance of a scooter
So it is best to dive slow when recreational diving, but then to use a DPV to go fast when you are tech diving??? Seems like an open contradiction to me.

Divers need mobility in the water. I don't see tech or rec orientations changing that basic need.
 
So it is best to dive slow when recreational diving, but then to use a DPV to go fast when you are tech diving??? Seems like an open contradiction to me.

Divers need mobility in the water. I don't see tech or rec orientations changing that basic need.
The dpv helps you in technical diving because of the amount of equipment you're moving through the water.

Leisurely rec dives looking at fishes with a single tank can be different.
 
So it is best to dive slow when recreational diving, but then to use a DPV to go fast when you are tech diving??? Seems like an open contradiction to me.

Divers need mobility in the water. I don't see tech or rec orientations changing that basic need.

And again you miss the point. Recreational divers typically have more mobility in the water than they actually need - and many new divers miss out on quite a lot by trying to cruise too fast from place to place. Tec divers, particularly when carrying double tanks PLUS stages and other gear, have no way to streamline their gear enough to make it possible to swim at a high rate of speed without lots of gas consumption or CO2 generation (for open and closed circuit, respectively), making a scooter a necessary tool for certain types of tec dives.

Of course, not every tec dive requires a scooter. I am currently cave diving on a rebreather, and I don't use a scooter yet. I'd sure like one, though! All that extra gear I carry for a long dive into a high flow cave makes the entrance swim a fair bit of work. The more I dive my rebreather, the lazier I am becoming. And neither streamlining nor a monofin is the COMPLETE answer to that problem. But dealing with a little extra work is something I am willing to deal with, since my rebreather gives me all the bottom time I want or need. If I were doing a much deeper cave, or doing a much longer penetration - then the fatigue might really be an issue, and I would need a scooter at that point.

Now if I am diving open circuit and carrying 3 plus tanks, that extra work equals an increased SAC rate, which means less dive time before I have to turn the dive. When I turn and go back with the flow, though, I can cruise out like superman without having to do anything but steer with my feet. A scooter in that scenario is not helpful because it can go fast - it's because it can make that entrance at a reasonable cruise speed despite the current, all with no effort on my part, so I have more gas to use for penetration. On the way out, I am in no hurry, but if there IS an issue, having the OPTION of speed is quite appealing. I like being able to cut the time to from an area it took me an hour to swim to down to 10-15 minutes for an exit. This is also very appealing when doing gas planning for exits in a deep cave, as you could realistically drain an aluminum 80 in even that short amount of time at 300+ feet. But let's be honest - that degree of gas planning is something well above my level, and yours.

Now as far as speed is concerned - the end goal of tec diving is NOT to do everything fast. But if you are dealing with depths that rack up significant deco times, and you are trying to see an area that is a far way back into a cave, for example, you better be able to get back to the area you are planning to dive in a reasonable time, unless you really like doing LOOOONG deco stops, or you really like carrying a metric crap ton of gas with you. That's another area that a scooter becomes necessary.

But hey - if you want to cruise back 20,000 feet plus into a cave with a monofin and no scooter, more power to you. At least we won't be engaging in any more of these meaningless discussions if that is your dive plan...
 
He tries to make the case that a diver NEEDS to be able to move at 2 knots to be able to function effectively as a diver in the open water, but I call BS on that.

BTW, the DeepWorker mini submersible is designed to operate in open water. It operates in the same environment and will have similar mobility requirements as a diver. Not that it is known for being fast or efficient, but even DeepWorker is a 3 knot machine. If 2 knots is BS, why would this machine be designed for 3 knots? :confused:
 
I can describe my recent dives and they illustrate perfectly the joy of a good scooter.

We have a set of submerged dry docks that we enjoy diving. We found them on open circuit (single tank). It involved walking along the shore to a noted entry point then swimming on a bearing. It was not all that difficult.

However, we'd much prefer to start from the parking lot instead of walking several hundred yards down a very rocky beach. So my buddy has twins and I have a rebreather. We have done that dive many times now. It takes 8 min to swim to the point on shore where you turn deep on the bearing, then 5 more minutes to reach the dry docks. Also, the docks are not together. It's 130 ft (measured) between #1 and #2. It's a really fun dive and we've done all 4 dry docks several times swimming all the way.

Then we brought in the scooters. First and obvious, the trip to the dry docks from the parking lot entrance takes 6 min total. No effort, just fun. But what iss even more fun is zooming around the structures. I would estimate that with the scooters we've covered more ground, seen more of the structures, and understand the layout of each dry dock much better than when we were swimming. The scooter really gives you an awesome overview of a wreck.

As to backup scooter, we know we can always swim home if there's a problem.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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