Redundancy Required for Decompression Diving?

[KevinNM]

In any given diving arena, there's scope and benefit for seeking out external validation and input.

Divers who eskew doing this tend to plateau, or stagnate, very quickly... or where just never half as good as they believed themselves to be..

Oh, come on, Deep Doc didn't need no stinking experts to know he was ready for his big dive.

 

[KenGordon]

How do you know your instructors is competent?


You can learn stuff from people that aren't instructors and there is lots of good sources in books and on the web.
Instructors often aren't experts, not by any stretch of the imagination! I could get an instructor rating for a whole bunch of stuff within a week (if that) that's not making me an expert though.

Your instructor is most likely to be working from a syllabus and have been through some training in how to present that syllabus. Both of those will have been subject to some review so that an organisation is prepared to stand by it.

They are not the rantings of a lone idiot.

I have less of a problem with people in person and books but websites and forums such as this are subject to all sorts of distortions.

If you think there is a risk that your instructor is useless, don't you think that is more likely to be obvious than whether the stuff on a web site is correct?

 

[Bennno]

Oh, come on, Deep Doc didn't need no stinking experts to know he was ready for his big dive.

That's actually a very good example. This guys WAS trained by 'experts' aka professional tec instructors.

Your instructor is most likely to be working from a syllabus and have been through some training in how to present that syllabus. Both of those will have been subject to some review so that an organisation is prepared to stand by it.

Since you give no info about yourself in your profile, I assume you're not an instructor and a newish diver. Alsolutely anyone at any skill level can get any instructor rating with most agencies! There is virtually no skill level required.

They are not the rantings of a lone idiot.

Self trained doesn't mean that you're diving with other people.

I have less of a problem with people in person and books but websites and forums such as this are subject to all sorts of distortions.

If you think there is a risk that your instructor is useless, don't you think that is more likely to be obvious than whether the stuff on a web site is correct?

As I said earlier, you need a level of experience and skill to be able to judge that. For instance, here on SB there're people like AJ, kensuf, bamafan, nakatomi (just to name a few) that give great advice even though some of tham are not instructors.
And than you have several 'tec' instructors that often give very poor advice.

For instance, look at the UTD guys saying the z system is safe and DIR. You must be completey delusional scientology material to believe these people are experts... yet people buy that crap, even though they were trained by 'experts'.

Instructor is a 'pay-level' not a 'skill-level' with most agencies. I could literally get certiefied as a tec instructor next weekend. How does that fact fit in your world? Serious question.

I'm not saying there are no good instructors... but when someone you don't know has an instructor cert, you can only be sure of ONE thing... he/she paid.

 

[KenGordon]

That's actually a very good example. This guys WAS trained by 'experts' aka professional tec instructors.


Since you give no info about yourself in your profile, I assume you're not an instructor and a newish diver. Alsolutely anyone at any skill level can get any instructor rating with most agencies! There is virtually no skill level required.


Self trained doesn't mean that you're diving with other people.


As I said earlier, you need a level of experience and skill to be able to judge that. For instance, here on SB there're people like AJ, kensuf, bamafan, nakatomi (just to name a few) that give great advice even though some of tham are not instructors.
And than you have several 'tec' instructors that often give very poor advice.

For instance, look at the UTD guys saying the z system is safe and DIR. You must be completey delusional scientology material to believe these people are experts... yet people buy that crap, even though they were trained by 'experts'.

Instructor is a 'pay-level' not a 'skill-level' with most agencies. I could literally get certiefied as a tec instructor next weekend. How does that fact fit in your world? Serious question.

I'm not saying there are no good instructors... but when someone you don't know has an instructor cert, you can only be sure of ONE thing... he/she paid.

If a widow or widower can show that UTD are teaching in a reckless and dangerous way then I am sure they'd soon cease to exist. If they can show that some bloke on SB had completely misunderstood deco theory and led their significant other to do something badly wrong then what?

A key factor in any serious risk mitigation is review. Stepping back and taking a look at something and deciding if it is correct or not. This is a very powerful tool. Better still if it is reviewed by other people, better again if reviewed by independent people.

Instructors teaching a syllabus will have had more review of their skills and materials than some bloke on the internet or some bloke you know from the boat club or whatever.

Now, there are some poor instructors and some skilled non instructors so there will be overlap. But on balance you are likely to be better off with the person who has been trained and practiced at teaching.

 

[RainPilot]

That's actually a very good example. This guys WAS trained by 'experts' aka professional tec instructors.


Since you give no info about yourself in your profile, I assume you're not an instructor and a newish diver. Alsolutely anyone at any skill level can get any instructor rating with most agencies! There is virtually no skill level required.


Self trained doesn't mean that you're diving with other people.


As I said earlier, you need a level of experience and skill to be able to judge that. For instance, here on SB there're people like AJ, kensuf, bamafan, nakatomi (just to name a few) that give great advice even though some of tham are not instructors.
And than you have several 'tec' instructors that often give very poor advice.

For instance, look at the UTD guys saying the z system is safe and DIR. You must be completey delusional scientology material to believe these people are experts... yet people buy that crap, even though they were trained by 'experts'.

Instructor is a 'pay-level' not a 'skill-level' with most agencies. I could literally get certiefied as a tec instructor next weekend. How does that fact fit in your world? Serious question.

I'm not saying there are no good instructors... but when someone you don't know has an instructor cert, you can only be sure of ONE thing... he/she paid.

Darnit, now you've made me put my beer down.

I've bolded the bits above I have the biggest problem with, although I disagree with nearly everything you've said.
The statement that "Alsolutely (sic) anyone at any skill level can get any instructor rating with most agencies! There is virtually no skill level required." is complete and utter balderdash and nonsense. Every single agency I have ever heard of has at the very least the following requirements for becoming an instructor:

1. Qualifications as a diver at least to DM level. This includes increasing levels of academic theory and in-water skills.
2. A course (IDC or equivalent) where time is spent on the theory of training, pedagogic techniques and knowledge transfer strategies.
3. A demonstrated ability to conduct all skills required of all course levels, to a standard SUBSTANTIALLY higher than the students will be required to achieve (demonstration quality). In addition, the candidate is required to demonstrate an ability to troubleshoot student performance in order to offer corrective guidance and debrief material (fault analysis and rectification).

In addition, each agency will ensure that their candidates are acting in accordance with their standards and policies, this will need to be assessed and demonstrated throughout. Many agencies also have recurrence requirements to ensure those standards are still being maintained.

Of course, the argument about whether those standards are high enough or up-to-date or whatever are the fuel for a million threads but to insist that instructors have no skill and training is downright insulting to those who have trained ALL of us for better or worse, including you.

I do believe that the impetus to continue learning etc is driven by the individual instructors, and there is an argument to be made for agencies taking a more pro-active stance on enforcing continual improvement strategies but that's not the subject here.

And while we are at it, the UTD Z-system comment was a bit surprising coming out of nowhere in this thread, but Im sure the OP won't mind me taking a minute here.

The arguments about the Z-system have boiled down to the following 2 camps:
FOR:
Protocols identical for SM and BM mixed teams. Muscle memory transfers. No reg swapping, primary long hose always in mouth ready for donation.

AGAINST:
Additional failure point of manifold is postulated. Considered unnecessary and possibly removing some of the advantages of independent SM.

Nobody as far as I can tell, has argued conclusively that the system is inherently unsafe. "Waste of money", "unnecessary" etc are bandied about but not unsafe.

 

[boulderjohn]

Since it only takes 1-2 day to become a sidemount instructor yourself,

With what agencies? I don't know the rules for all of them, but I can't imagine any like that. The ones I know all have a minimum number of required dives that will take many days to complete, in addition to any other requirements.

 

[boulderjohn]

Alsolutely anyone at any skill level can get any instructor rating with most agencies! There is virtually no skill level required.

As RainPilot said, this is absurdly untrue. It is simply ludicrous.It is so ridiculous that it has to call into question anything else you have written.

 

[jseyfert3]

I think I'm getting your drift. It explains why some of the veteran divers I encounter are actually quite poorly skilled, sometimes dangerous and yet, have a high regard for themselves as divers.

A pattern whereby complacency and 'normalization-of-deviance' becomes a justification in, and of, itself to reject continued education.

So for better or worse, my first dive after certification was in Grenada to about 55' (I'm going to start a separate thread for that), but that's not why I'm posting here. There were two divers there, both openly telling everyone they were tech certified divers. Both had pony bottles and when asked before the dive by other curious divers they said it was because of safety and they would never dive without redundant air.

DM took me, my wife, and another diver to the boat when we were running lower, the other guy had 500 PSI on the boat, I had 1150, my wife 800. DM went back down to the rest of the group and when the boat picked them up, the other divers ended with 600, 500, 1250. The two tech divers with pony bottles? 250 and 300. I suddenly wasn't impressed with these tech certified divers.

BTW @DevonDiver, if there's one thing I've learned from you posts, it's that if I'm ever in the area, I'd like to get training from you.

 

[Patoux01]

And how do you tell the difference between complete bollocks and fact?

Common sense. I'll give in, it's not that common these days, but really, there's nothing complicated...

 

[boulderjohn]

DM took me, my wife, and another diver to the boat when we were running lower, the other guy had 500 PSI on the boat, I had 1150, my wife 800. DM went back down to the rest of the group and when the boat picked them up, the other divers ended with 600, 500, 1250. The two tech divers with pony bottles? 250 and 300. I suddenly wasn't impressed with these tech certified divers.

It is very possible for new divers to have breathing rates similar to tech divers. I have a pretty good breathing rate, although it is by no means fabulous. I certified two old friends a few years ago and have done many dives with them since. The husband matched me from the first day, and neither of us can come close to his wife. When I teach classes that include petite and athletic females, I assume they will blow my breathing rate away on the first dive.