Slow tissue on gas from stops

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Was that it?
I think the conversation is kind of just.... over.
How anticlimatic.

Oh well, I've put across all I wanted to, so I think I'll just go ahead and sod off at this point.
There is also a matter of a painting I need to put on a wall or something.

It's been a good convo, gang. See you around.


Safe diving, have fun :happywave:
 
Regarding GF100/100 and why this is not what people dived 30 years ago, we had that one earlier:
Gradient Factors and Deep Stops

There was another argument sometimes made for deep stops (surprised it didn't show up here): Isn't your brain more important to you than your joints and skin? Any DCS incidence is counted in experiments, whereas I'd personally prefer to protect my brain more from neural DCS in exchange for a little higher risk of joint pain or skin rash any day. Then there are the long term effects such as brain lesions visible in MRI that can't be considered in these decompression studies at all. See Long term effects of recreational diving....scientific data?

So shouldn't I protect my fast tissues (brain) at the expense of the slow ones (joints) by shifting shallow stop time to depth, even if all studies counting only short term DCS and bubbles tell me otherwise?

But the DCS mechanisms are not so simple. The location of the lesions in the Reul/Weis paper suggests occlusion of small blood vessels as a cause, i.e. it can be caused by any bubbles created anywhere in the body passing as VGE through shunts into the brain, rather than bubbles created in the brain. So again, if I want to protect my brain better then I must reduce bubbling overall. The frequent statement that deep stops "protect" the fast tissues like brain can be easily misunderstood.
 
There was another argument sometimes made for deep stops (surprised it didn't show up here): Isn't your brain more important to you than your joints and skin? Any DCS incidence is counted in experiments, whereas I'd personally prefer to protect my brain more from neural DCS in exchange for a little higher risk of joint pain or skin rash any day ...

So shouldn't I protect my fast tissues (brain) at the expense of the slow ones (joints) by shifting shallow stop time to depth, even if all studies counting only short term DCS and bubbles tell me otherwise?

The deep stop schedule from the NEDU study produced more Type II hits than the shallow schedule. I think it was on the order of 2x as risky for the Type II cases.
 
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The deep stop schedule from the NEDU study produced more Type II hits than the shallow schedule. I think it was on the order of 2x as risky for the Type II cases.

So those human trials wouldn't support your hypothesis.

Yes I know, it was a rhetorical question, see my paragraph below that hypothesis. That was exactly my point, that lower supersaturation of the fast tissues shouldn't be called "protecting the fast tissues". Although the fast tissues are less supersaturated with the deep stop schedule and may produce fewer bubbles, they eventually see more bubbles and higher DCS risk than with the shallow stop schedule.
 
Your posts seem to have conceded that the research shows that bubble-model-style deep stops increase the risk of DCS.

Actually, I think we need to be careful to be accurate about this statement. The NEDU study studied different ascent strategies in order to compare the relative efficiency of the ascent strategies calculated by the models.

After having read and followed a great number of these threads, I personally think that a number of conclusions can be drawn from what they discovered. I should qualify this by saying that I am not a decompression scientist, just a diver. However, the conclusions I read from the research are:

- Ascent strategies including deep stops are less efficient than Buhlmann-style ascents that get the diver shallower faster.
- Ascent strategies including deep stops do actually protect fast tissues as they claim, but at the cost of increased tissue loading in slower tissues.
- On sufficiently extreme dives, the fast tissues are not the ones implicated in the formation of DCS, so it would appear that the deep stop algorithms are working with some incorrect assumptions.

As it stands right now, I think it's safe to conclude that on sufficiently extreme dives, that existing bubble models are not calibrated well enough to protect the diver from DCS as well as the Buhlmann algorithm. On sufficiently extreme dives the existing bubble models would appear to need "padding" on shallow stops and will probably result in longer decompression times for similar profiles than one would need when using a Buhlmann model.

The issue for divers is :
a) we don't know how much padding is enough because the algorithm doesn't help us calculate that
and
b) when given a choice between a more efficient and a less efficient ascent strategy, it would seem illogical to choose the less efficient variant.
and
c) a very pertinent issue for scuba divers is that their ascents are very seldom as perfect as the ascents tested in the lab. Therefore the model must be able to adjust to deviations in the intended ascent plan in order to advise divers accurately about the required shallow time.

Having said all of that, however, what I can NOT conclude from my reading of the NEDU study is that deep stops in and of themselves are somehow dangerous and/or lead to a higher risk of DCS. What I DO conclude from the study is that IF you do deep stops, you need to compensate for that with more time shallow. A Buhlmann based computer will calculate that for you, a bubble model such as RGBM/VPM/BVM (the model NEDU used)/Ratio deco et.al, won't do so accurately enough at this time.

So let me say that again. Deep stops are fine IF you aware that they don't have any particular benefit beyond protecting fast tissues AND are using an algorithm that will calculate the necessary padding well enough. My reading is that Buhlmann algorithms appear to do that better than bubble algorithms.

Finally, there is the issue of calibration. I'm not 100% convinced that ANY algorithm is perfectly calibrated. Extreme deep divers all use Buhlmann but none of them use it the way a "garden variety" technical diver like myself would. To the best of my knowledge they all pad the shallow stops a lot more than Buhlmann calculates because there appears to be drift in that algorithm as well. In other words, no algorithm is perfect. To my way of seeing, Buhlmann is currently the "least imperfect" algorithm we have at this point in time. Perhaps in the future scientists will find a way to calibrate the bubble models better and in a few years we'll all be tearing down Buhlmann online instead. :)

R..
 
Having said all of that, however, what I can NOT conclude from my reading of the NEDU study is that deep stops in and of themselves are somehow dangerous and/or lead to a higher risk of DCS.

R..
R, IIRC the NEDU study had a percentage of bends for the deep stops version?
 
R, IIRC the NEDU study had a percentage of bends for the deep stops version?

Yes, they did. However, you need to understand WHY.

I don't think people are really getting this. The NEDU study was testing the EFFICIENCY of different ascent strategies. They were NOT testing if a deep stop in and of itself was good or bad. WE ... divers ... drew that conclusion. We basically drew the conclusion that it was inefficient and THEREFORE bad.

NEDU didn't make a value judgement about it. They just concluded that a deep stop strategy was less efficient and -- I think it's safe to say -- that bubble models are generally calibrated badly.

Do you see the difference between saying that and saying that deep stops are bad?

R..
 
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