Slow tissue on gas from stops

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But, let's also agree that with the logic that the above means RD would be irresponsible, "all divers are strokes" would work for a non-diver. It's about accepting a risk for a benefit, I think.
I don't know what that first sentence means. But with regard to "accepting a risk for a benefit" ...

I really don't care what risk a person decides to take for themselves. But the key word is decides, which implies informed consent.

So if you tell students ...

"Currently research is indicating that our approach to decompression involves some level of additional risk. But UTD has decided that accepting some additional DCS risk is a worthwhile tradeoff for [fill in the perceived benefits].

The magnitude of the additional risk is not quantifiable with the information we now have. But you should know that it may be significant in some diving contexts and, therefore, may require substantially longer decompressions in order to obtain the same level of risk as other alternatives that current research would imply more efficiently reduce risk."


... then that's responsible and would allow an informed decision on risk/reward.

But if the research is downplayed or implied to be inconsequential in practice (as you've done on this thread), then in my opinion it's irresponsible.
 
I don't know what that first sentence means. But with regard to "accepting a risk for a benefit" ...

I really don't care what risk a person decides to take for themselves. But the key word is decides, which implies informed consent.

So if you tell students ...

"Currently research is indicating that our approach to decompression involves some level of additional risk. But UTD has decided that accepting some additional DCS risk is a worthwhile tradeoff for [fill in the perceived benefits].

The magnitude of the additional risk is not quantifiable with the information we now have. But you should know that it may be significant in some diving contexts and, therefore, may require substantially longer decompressions in order to obtain the same level of risk as other alternatives that current research would imply more efficiently reduce risk."


... then that's responsible and would allow an informed decision on risk/reward.

But if the research is downplayed or implied to be inconsequential in practice (as you've done on this thread), then in my opinion it's irresponsible.
Yeeessssss!!!!
 
I have a few observations to make.

Dan is obviously quite gifted at wordplay and is highly intelligent but will use the statements made by others in ways that modify the original intent in order to justify his position. This practice invariably leads to a needed correction by the misquoted person to correct the record. He has also been a victim of the same tactics but far less frequently.

The greatest danger in using Ratio Deco is when it is used in lieu of a computer for diving because of the higher risk of a human mistake creating an episode of DCI. The combination of narcosis, task loading and inaccurate mental accounting of depth throughout the dive has too much potential for "undeserved hits" that are anything but.

Using ratios to make educated guesses about expected consequences of modifications to a dive plan can be a useful tool that is a natural result of high levels of diving experience but I would not stake my health on it. If we didn't have reliable dive computers I might make a different choice but the fact is we have those tools and should use them.

This thread has had an unfortunate weave of several issues that results in participants talking past each other. The danger of staking your safety on your ability to do math consistently and perfectly while experiencing some level of narcosis and other distractions is far more troublesome to me than the potential for deep stops leading to additional on gassing that will require additional time at shallow depths to compensate. Unfortunately these two issues are being intertwined in this discussion. The whole issue of UTD RD is in my opinion a topic that is raised each time the issue of deep stops is discussed and it is an argument that introduces an emotional battle to a subject that at least in this thread is not being argued even though it is the actual topic of the thread.

The entire thread has taken an off topic turn that is probably most of it's content at this point.

Finally, as a moderator I have found the discussion to be mostly civil albeit exhausting and boring and there is literally nothing to be learned at this point. The only thing we are exploring is the limits to which the participants in this thread are willing to go to have the last word on a subject in which it is impossible to have the last word. On the bright side, the room is full of adults speaking their minds and I would rather be bored by adults than driven crazy by children so thanks for that at least.

We should never let this thread die because it will simply rise from the ashes like a phoenix and we will have to go through the whole thing again from the beginning.
 
my twopence worth is thankfully after reading this tread, i always know if i need a slower assent and longer stops. dive the plan but never ignore what your body is saying.
 
I don't know what that first sentence means. But with regard to "accepting a risk for a benefit" ...

I really don't care what risk a person decides to take for themselves. But the key word is decides, which implies informed consent.

So if you tell students ...

"Currently research is indicating that our approach to decompression involves some level of additional risk. But UTD has decided that accepting some additional DCS risk is a worthwhile tradeoff for [fill in the perceived benefits].

The magnitude of the additional risk is not quantifiable with the information we now have. But you should know that it may be significant in some diving contexts and, therefore, may require substantially longer decompressions in order to obtain the same level of risk as other alternatives that current research would imply more efficiently reduce risk."


... then that's responsible and would allow an informed decision on risk/reward.

But if the research is downplayed or implied to be inconsequential in practice (as you've done on this thread), then in my opinion it's irresponsible.

I get what you're saying.

I am consistently clear with clients about limitations and suboptimalities of RD, and often have conversations with clients about the Spisni- and NEDU studies.

I also am clear that it's not an algorithm and it's not a scientific formula - I say that, and UTD officially says that, too.
They also emphasise the risk/benefit perspective, and they're very clear that it's open to personal adaptation as one's knowledge and experience develops.

(On here, if it's come across as though I'm trying to downplay the scientific materials available - let me be clear that my motivation has solely been arguing unsubstantiated claims; e.g. "RD is dangerous/defective/irresponsible/unsafe".
If at any point this has come across as though I'm trying to say RD is in fact "optimal" and the body of knowledge available is invalid, then my meaning has come across differently than intended)


Look, let's start with what's the general practice among organizations.
Some (the majority?) simply say something to the effect of "your instructor will show you", or "do as your computer manufacturer says".

Personally, this is what landed me on VPM when I first started tech diving, with a technical branch of an organization that prides itself in teaching the world to dive.

1) Do you feel that's the "right" solution?

Also, I feel that it's very clear from UTDs Student and Diver Procedures that it's not a scientific, algorithm-style endeavouring of an optimal decompression schedule, rather a starting point from which divers can grow, learn, adapt and adjust as their knowledge and experience develops.

Setting aside any potential previous conceptualizations, and looking only at the letters in the above paragraph;

2) Do you feel that's a fair premise?

In the field of scuba, it's my opinion that adaptability is generally scarce (buddy-breathing, nitrox, trimix, etc.).
The Spisni study is one year old. RD2.0 has been on the streets for a while "already". But, all that aside;

3) How long should it maximally take an organization to adapt to new input from the scientific field?
 
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We should never let this thread die because it will simply rise from the ashes like a phoenix and we will have to go through the whole thing again from the beginning.

Well, we certainly wouldn't want *that*. A Monty Python clip comes to mind. Thanks, Ray, for keeping an eye on things. (The mods have a hard job. We should double their pay.)

There is only *one* point I don't want to get lost in this long discussion: To me, RD and similar techniques are valuable backup tools to have in one's diving toolbox.

I have had a computer fail underwater (my son was wearing it), but since we had just gotten the bottom and had been side-by-side, I just handed him my backup. I have also had a "danger, danger, Will Robinson" low battery warning before I had a backup trimix computer. But knowing ratio, depth, and time, I can find my way back in a way that will (a) have more risk than following a working computer would have but less risk than pure guessing would have, (b) not make the best use of my deco time, but (c) would almost certainly get me up without serious injury, and probably with no injury at all.

This has value, and I think people who do a lot of technical diving should seriously consider learning it.

But use RD to run a dive, with malice aforethought? Not so much, for reasons that have been hashed over here to exhaustion.

Dan, you probably disagree, and that's fine. But understand the difference between a misunderstanding, something that can be solved with more explanation, and a disagreement, which cannot. This is not a misunderstanding.
 
This has value, and I think people who do a lot of technical diving should seriously consider learning it.

But use RD to run a dive, with malice aforethought? Not so much, for reasons that have been hashed over here to exhaustion.

Dan, you probably disagree, and that's fine. But understand the difference between a misunderstanding, something that can be solved with more explanation, and a disagreement, which cannot. This is not a misunderstanding.

One thing I like from conversations with ccr-divers, about "which dustbox?", is that most of them understand automatically that Person A's breather is the right one for Person A, and Person B's breather is the right one for Person B.

Applying that same perspective, I can't disagree with your choice. It's your choice.

What I'm saying is I have a choice and a different conclusion, but that's a different matter. It's not about any of that.

It's about the fact that I can't say "science proves RD is better for the physiological decompression process", and you can't say "science proves RD is dangerous". So long as we're in agreement on that, I don't have any issue.

Apart, perhaps, from the choice of "malice aforethought", unless my understanding of the phrase differs from that which was intended.

As for "misunderstandings" versus "disagreements", all I'll say is that I personally think there have been a significant proportion of disagreements and misunderstandings holding hands in the last 30-odd pages.
 
I think the RD discussion misses the historic context. This is coming from exploration cave divers. Their profiles are far from the rectangle shape that tables were made for. For example: 2hrs at 15m average with a short dip to 35m; using tables with the worst-case assumption of full bottom time at maximum depth is very inefficient for their long multilevel yoyo profiles. 20 years ago there were no reliable dive computers either so they had to come up with something different. Wreck divers on the other hand were fine with tables. It's no coincidence that GUE taught RD while TDI didn't.
The confusion occurs when aspiring wreck divers take cave organization's tec classes and then prefer RD over tables and computers for a wreck dive. Doesn't make sense to me but I've seen it happen.
 
I think the RD discussion misses the historic context. This is coming from exploration cave divers. Their profiles are far from the rectangle shape that tables were made for. For example: 2hrs at 15m average with a short dip to 35m; using tables with the worst-case assumption of full bottom time at maximum depth is very inefficient for their long multilevel yoyo profiles. 20 years ago there were no reliable dive computers either so they had to come up with something different. Wreck divers on the other hand were fine with tables. It's no coincidence that GUE taught RD while TDI didn't.
The confusion occurs when aspiring wreck divers take cave organization's tec classes and then prefer RD over tables and computers for a wreck dive. Doesn't make sense to me but I've seen it happen.
You’re mixing up use of average depth for deco calculation and ratio deco.

RD really falls apart on longer dives. If I did RD instead of tables/computer on my last exploration dive I’d be short about two hours worth of deco time. That would be bad.
 

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