Suunto Eon Core vs D6i Novo vs D4i Novo

[dmaziuk]

I never even realised that the Fused RGBM model was different.

We recently had a couple with Gekkos (set to maximum conservatism "because we're old") go into mandatory stop while DM's Eon Steel was OK for another hour (or close enough for an Internet post). I assumed DM's was on "0", he certainly didn't mention having it on one of the "negative" settings.

 

[Fires]

We recently had a couple with Gekkos (set to maximum conservatism "because we're old") go into mandatory stop while DM's Eon Steel was OK for another hour (or close enough for an Internet post). I assumed DM's was on "0", he certainly didn't mention having it on one of the "negative" settings.

Very interesting! Shows you the conservatism, which is in itself good I guess. I mean if you are having a really poor day (multiple items on the list), then setting to 2 is probably the right thing to do.

 

[dmaziuk]

Very interesting! Shows you the conservatism, which is in itself good I guess. I mean if you are having a really poor day (multiple items on the list), then setting to 2 is probably the right thing to do.

What isn't clear (to me, after reading papers and code and SB posts for some time) is what the percentages are. I.e. a given computer is programmed to keep the chances of clinical DCS for a well-calibrated perfectly spherical reference diver of uniform density, at or below X. Setting conservatism factor to +2 changes that to Y. To my knowledge nobody ever tells you what X or Y are, for any computer out there: 2 in 10,000 and 1 in 10,001 resp.?

Eon's "fused" RGBM sounds "smarter" and more "adaptive", probably because Eons have a bigger CPU capable of running smarter code in the first place, but even that is only smarter for that reference diver; it's unclear how that relates to you personally on any given day.

So I tend to leave mine (Cressi) on SF0 and not worry too much about it. But I'm a vacation diver, I practically always dive Al80s in warm water, and mostly: only to 20-ish metres. YMMV and all that.

 

[Diving Dubai]

What I should say - is that I kinda simplified Fused RGBM

So 0, +1 and +2 aren't direct equivalents of the settings on a D4 or D6 - wel they are until the Eon switches to the Tec RGBM (which is where the fused comes from.

If you stay shallow and are on the same conservatism as Rec suuntos then it "should" have a similar NDL time, once you go deeper - say 20-30m and the Tec RGBM take over then your NDL will differ (you'll have more)

I say this because if you're guiding on an Eon and going deeper then you need to keep an eye on your groups NDL. If you just follow yours you could run them into deco.

 

[BoltSnap]

If you stay shallow and are on the same conservatism as Rec suuntos then it "should" have a similar NDL time, once you go deeper - say 20-30m and the Tec RGBM take over then your NDL will differ (you'll have more)

Are you saying that the Eon with the "fused RGBM" will be more liberal once it passes the 20 - 30m depth compared with the other Suunto rec. computers with the standard "RGBM"?

 

[Fires]

What isn't clear (to me, after reading papers and code and SB posts for some time) is what the percentages are. I.e. a given computer is programmed to keep the chances of clinical DCS for a well-calibrated perfectly spherical reference diver of uniform density, at or below X. Setting conservatism factor to +2 changes that to Y. To my knowledge nobody ever tells you what X or Y are, for any computer out there: 2 in 10,000 and 1 in 10,001 resp.?

Eon's "fused" RGBM sounds "smarter" and more "adaptive", probably because Eons have a bigger CPU capable of running smarter code in the first place, but even that is only smarter for that reference diver; it's unclear how that relates to you personally on any given day.

So I tend to leave mine (Cressi) on SF0 and not worry too much about it. But I'm a vacation diver, I practically always dive Al80s in warm water, and mostly: only to 20-ish metres. YMMV and all that.

Very valid point, and something I have been thinking about too! I don't think it is a simple number though to jut give...like it is 5% less conservative or something like that? Who knows Would be great of they could though.

What I should say - is that I kinda simplified Fused RGBM

So 0, +1 and +2 aren't direct equivalents of the settings on a D4 or D6 - wel they are until the Eon switches to the Tec RGBM (which is where the fused comes from.

If you stay shallow and are on the same conservatism as Rec suuntos then it "should" have a similar NDL time, once you go deeper - say 20-30m and the Tec RGBM take over then your NDL will differ (you'll have more)

I say this because if you're guiding on an Eon and going deeper then you need to keep an eye on your groups NDL. If you just follow yours you could run them into deco.

Something to really consider though! I need to keep an eye on them too, even if they are watching. Especially with the newer divers. I had a recent diver who went into deco without knowing or really understanding it.

Are you saying that the Eon with the "fused RGBM" will be more liberal once it passes the 20 - 30m depth compared with the other Suunto rec. computers with the standard "RGBM"?

From what has been said here and what I have read, it seems so! Seems the tech side is more liberal. Which is kinda what people wanted.

The one issue for me is, if I do use this for tec, how can we plan with this algorithm and be sure it sticks to that plan and doesn't give an extra amount of deco stop for whatever reason. I guess that is the whole vs. Buhlman argument.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Are you saying that the Eon with the "fused RGBM" will be more liberal once it passes the 20 - 30m depth compared with the other Suunto rec. computers with the standard "RGBM"?

Suunto state the change over is at 30m. I've dived the Eon in conjunction with the D6 and find on equivalent setting it is more liberal. Given that Suunto claim they both used the same RGBM I feel that the change over is either earlier or more gradual. Suunto Fused RGBM can be found here

I really don't get het up with the whole conservatism thing I've never felt RGMB has limited a dive unless I do a short SI. I never do one less than 75mins and won't' dive with ops that try to.

I know from actual experience that the Eon and the Perdix on their lowest conservatism perform similarly - Actually the Eon had about 1 - 2 minute more NDL - but who cares about a minute?

I'd personally rather use a higher conservatism and make a Deco stop then push the NDL curve. But everyone is different.

No computer actually knows how close my body actually is to the M line In the real world I'd rather be cautious than run to the limit.

I've seen someone take a bend, well within NDL on a Suunto having had a safe conservative profile, hence I prefer caution

But other people may feel differently and that's fine

 

[Diving Dubai]

V
The one issue for me is, if I do use this for tec, how can we plan with this algorithm and be sure it sticks to that plan and doesn't give an extra amount of deco stop for whatever reason. I guess that is the whole vs. Buhlman argument.

Suunto DM5 allows you to plan. I often do alongside others using Buhlmann. Yes you're both using different apps, but on the written plan you take the most conservative.

Now all that said, I'm going to invest in a Buhlmann machine as I'm about to start training for extended and Trimix to 90m it's "easier" to all be on the same algorithm. I'm still undecided on the Perdix or the OSTC . I will still take along the Eon and as I get more data will let people know.


BTW I'll be in Jo Burg early June - you're probably on the other side of the country but if not...

 

[dmaziuk]

The one issue for me is, if I do use this for tec, how can we plan with this algorithm and be sure it sticks to that plan and doesn't give an extra amount of deco stop for whatever reason. I guess that is the whole vs. Buhlman argument.

Yep, with Suunto you're limited to Suunto dive planner software. With Buhlmann or VPM you get more choices.

There's also a growing concern that bubble models (RGBM, VPM) produce decompression stops that are deeper than advisable for the same total ascent time, so if you plan on repeated deco dives with limited runtimes, that may be worth considering.

 

[Fires]

Suunto state the change over is at 30m. I've dived the Eon in conjunction with the D6 and find on equivalent setting it is more liberal. Given that Suunto claim they both used the same RGBM I feel that the change over is either earlier or more gradual. Suunto Fused RGBM can be found here

I really don't get het up with the whole conservatism thing I've never felt RGMB has limited a dive unless I do a short SI. I never do one less than 75mins and won't' dive with ops that try to.

I know from actual experience that the Eon and the Perdix on their lowest conservatism perform similarly - Actually the Eon had about 1 - 2 minute more NDL - but who cares about a minute?

I'd personally rather use a higher conservatism and make a Deco stop then push the NDL curve. But everyone is different.

No computer actually knows how close my body actually is to the M line In the real world I'd rather be cautious than run to the limit.

I've seen someone take a bend, well within NDL on a Suunto having had a safe conservative profile, hence I prefer caution

But other people may feel differently and that's fine

I 100% agree. I rather be on the cautious side, because as you say, who knows how close you are too the line.

Especially with teaching, we more often than not are tired, overworking (due to students), doing CESA's, multiple days diving etc. etc. so I rather be more conservative

Suunto DM5 allows you to plan. I often do alongside others using Buhlmann. Yes you're both using different apps, but on the written plan you take the most conservative.

Now all that said, I'm going to invest in a Buhlmann machine as I'm about to start training for extended and Trimix to 90m it's "easier" to all be on the same algorithm. I'm still undecided on the Perdix or the OSTC . I will still take along the Eon and as I get more data will let people know.


BTW I'll be in Jo Burg early June - you're probably on the other side of the country but if not...

So can you also plan tec dives on it then? I have never planned through DM5. Want to update again, as the last few mac versions weren't great and crashed all the time!

Makes sense to swop if you are going that deep and everyone else is on the same algorithm! Will be interesting to see what results you get when diving them both.

Ah awesome! Well, I am in fact in Joburg Happy to meet up! How long are you here for?

Yep, with Suunto you're limited to Suunto dive planner software. With Buhlmann or VPM you get more choices.

There's also a growing concern that bubble models (RGBM, VPM) produce decompression stops that are deeper than advisable for the same total ascent time, so if you plan on repeated deco dives with limited runtimes, that may be worth considering.

Thanks, will give it some thought. I have been reading a lot more about it, and also saw now that VPM is bubble based. Having never looked into anything else before, I was quite surprised as I have heard people mention it a few times.