Brand new OW diver - PADI or GUE to progress?

[seeker242]

I suppose one's budget for diving, especially advanced tech diving, needs to include not just the training but also travel.

If I recall, GUE requires 25 dives over a 3-year period at one's highest level of certification to maintain the cert. I realize tech dives are somewhat bigger undertakings than reef bimbles, but still, 25 dives over three years is about the minimum ANY diver should be doing to keep their skills up.

It seems it's actually 25 dives over a 5 year period, to renew the card. But, the card expires after 3 years. But even if you can't do that in 5 years, all you need is an instructor to give an approval to get it back.

1.6.5 Diver Requalification
All GUE certification cards expire three years after the date of issue. To maintain GUE certification, GUE divers must certify that they have conducted twenty-five dives at the level of their certification within a three-year period. Upon review, divers can be issued a new certification card for a nominal fee.

The allowable time for requalification in this manner is five years. If a diver fails to requalify in five years, then formal approval from a GUE instructor at the appropriate level is required.

That seems to say that if you get 25 dives in 5 years, you can still renew the card.

And that's part of the point, isn't it? "at your highest level of certification" So, doing a bunch of dives in the <200' range doesn't really fill that bill, does it?

Max depth for Tech 1 is 170'. I would assume anything below that would qualify for a Tech 2 Dive re-qualification.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The sad part is when my GUE buddies miss dives because they can't dive the plan that the rest of the team has decided to use - like gases that are not Standard Gases, or GF 40/80 or whatever.

And why not? Sounds like they choose not to. But there is no GUE scuba police. GUE teaches a system for a particular purpose. They don’t hold guns to anyone’s head. What am I missing?

 

[stuartv]

It seems it's actually 25 dives over a 5 year period, to renew the card. But, the card expires after 3 years. But even if you can't do that in 5 years, all you need is an instructor to give an approval to get it back.



That seems to say that if you get 25 dives in 5 years, you can still renew the card.



Max depth for Tech 1 is 170'. I would assume anything below that would qualify for a Tech 2 Dive re-qualification.

My read is that you could get it back within the 5 years, but you still have to have done 25 in the preceding 3 years.

And why not? Sounds like they choose not to. But there is no GUE scuba police. GUE teaches a system for a particular purpose. They don’t hold guns to anyone’s head. What am I missing?

You're missing a choice that is made to only dive the way GUE teaches - which may be the only way a given diver knows.

So, they miss dives because he/they don't know how to plan a dive using gases that are not on the Standard Gas list. Unless he/they learned somewhere outside of GUE. Ditto for doing an ascent that is faster than the GUE prescribed way of doing it (which I believe would be the case if you were diving GF 40/80, for example).

You support the notion of adhering to your training when diving, right? So, what do you say to the GUE diver who shows up for a NC wreck dive at 105' and the shop only offers a choice of Air or EAN30? If the person only has GUE training, it is my understanding (WHICH COULD TOTALLY BE WRONG) that they would not be able to both adhere to their training AND go diving, as their training would require them to use EAN32, which is not available.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You're missing a choice that is made to only dive the way GUE teaches - which may be the only way a given diver knows.

Well, I haven't taken T1, but I understand that GUE provides their dive planning software. I don't think that is a stretch to use multideco

So, they miss dives because he/they don't know how to plan a dive using gases that are not on the Standard Gas list. Unless he/they learned somewhere outside of GUE. Ditto for doing an ascent that is faster than the GUE prescribed way of doing it (which I believe would be the case if you were diving GF 40/80, for example).

Again I haven't gone T1, but I'd be surprised that they wouldn't be able to transfer their knowledge of the GUE software (which I haven't seen) to Multi deco and put in different numbers. It isn't rocket science and I wouldn't consider this going outside one's training.

You support the notion of adhering to your training when diving, right? So, what do you say to the GUE diver who shows up for a NC wreck dive at 105' and the shop only offers a choice of Air or EAN30? If the person only has GUE training, it is my understanding (WHICH COULD TOTALLY BE WRONG) that they would not be able to both adhere to their training AND go diving, as their training would require them to use EAN32, which is not available.

I would say dive EAN30. If the diver says I cannot go to 105' without helium, then I'd say they've drunk the Kool Aid.

Common sense should prevail. Remember that GUE is a system for a particular type of diving. It doesn't work as well for diving outside of that type.

 

[elgoog]

But for some reason they leave a trace of divers who keep bragging how much better divers they are compared to everybody else. And they do this right after passing fundies with a low dive count. Not all, but some. I don't see this pattern with any other agency.

Emphasis mine.
I can't remember exactly where I read this but it came up when I was still researching GUE a few years ago. I read that a few GUE clubs have a rule that a new Fundies grad can't talk about the advantages of GUE and how good of a diver it's made them for at least 6 months after taking the course. I did not understand it then but did as soon as I finished mine I think it's because the course usually improves your diving so much and there's this sense of accomplishment that makes you want to tell everyone about how great it is. My anecdotal experience with GUE divers is that they tend to get more and more humble the more advanced they get.
I see the same thing in martial arts as well. The person who just graduated from white belt to the next one up immediately takes it upon themselves to tell everyone how good that style is, why it beats all other styles, "oh you're doing it wrong, lemme show you a better way", etc.

If you're certified for hypoxic trimix (GUE Tech 2?, TDI Adv Trimix, etc.), I think managing 8 dives per year - at that level - could be challenging. Especially if you are an ocean diver, not a cave diver. The guys I personally know around here that do those >200 foot dives get blown out half the time (or more) and it seems like they probably mostly don't get in more than 2 - 4 dives a year that are that deep. And that's part of the point, isn't it? "at your highest level of certification" So, doing a bunch of dives in the <200' range doesn't really fill that bill, does it?

Nevertheless, if one can't manage 25 dives over three years at their highest level of certification, did they bite off more than they can chew with that last cert? It seems to me that one should pursue the next cert level because they feel their current level is holding them back--keeping them from doing the kinds of dives they want to do (and have the time and money to do, not to mention the dive environment conducive to doing them).
But my thinking is that if one has difficulty doing, say, 8 Tech 2-level dives a year, then maybe Tech 2 doesn't truly fit that diver's life? The goal, I presume, is to discourage dabbling in dives that push one's current limits. Maybe diving hypoxic trimix in the Atlantic just a few times a year is not the safest idea? If you're a Florida diver doing caves, or a European going to Croatia, maybe Tech 2 makes more sense for your situation?

Nothing really to add to the above 2 quotes other than I agree with both of you on this. From local boat diving experience and messages on the email lists, I see a fair number of tech boats get blown out (2017 was especially bad). We have a couple of backup tech dive sites that the captain can usually go to but I've seen divers skip those and just hang out on the boat as they didn't want to do that dive again, "waste" a trimix fill on it, etc.

Specific to cave diving and wrecks in tech range (because both are of interest to me) - An interesting conundrum along these lines is whether doing the minimum number of dives (or more) per year, all within a week or two on trips still meets the spirit of the rule. As opposed to being able to do 1-2 such dives a month, which to me, seems like it keeps your skills more current and ingrained. I assume you would still try to use those same skills during your non-cave, non-tech dives but still ...

You're missing a choice that is made to only dive the way GUE teaches - which may be the only way a given diver knows.

So, they miss dives because he/they don't know how to plan a dive using gases that are not on the Standard Gas list. Unless he/they learned somewhere outside of GUE. Ditto for doing an ascent that is faster than the GUE prescribed way of doing it (which I believe would be the case if you were diving GF 40/80, for example).

You support the notion of adhering to your training when diving, right? So, what do you say to the GUE diver who shows up for a NC wreck dive at 105' and the shop only offers a choice of Air or EAN30? If the person only has GUE training, it is my understanding (WHICH COULD TOTALLY BE WRONG) that they would not be able to both adhere to their training AND go diving, as their training would require them to use EAN32, which is not available.

Following is my personal approach on diving and GUE training only (and probably the only part of this post that is actually relevant to the OP @salmon_ella post). GUE training gave me a set of tools to conduct safe dives and a framework (standard gases, equipment, ascent rates, etc) to make planning super easy. I choose to use those as much as I can but, if it's not possible, I don't limit myself to it. I don't like making changes on the fly or right before splashing but I like to think I can use my GUE training combined with knowledge of local conditions, resources and talking to non-GUE buddies about the dive to actually plan the dive.

The example of EAN30 on NC wrecks is a good one for me as I'm planning this trip next summer. In this case, I just ran a couple of max depth square profiles on EAN32 and EAN30 and know what adjustments to make to my "normal" GUE dive planning.

For tech dives, it's probably a little more involved than this but I can't imagine not talking to a potential buddy ahead of time what gases, deco schedule, etc that they plan to use. Does this actually happen? That you show up on a tech boat and get buddied up with someone on the spot. I'm (hopefully) going to complete Rec 3 soon and I would not be comfortable even doing a dive with backgas deco with someone I hadn't spoken to before and talked about what I wanted to do, was comfortable doing, not doing, etc.
@stuartv I'm curious if the GUE divers who skipped the dives because of reasons you listed had not talked about it before. Did they plan on not doing the dives at all or made the decision right before the dive when they found out what the parameter were going to be.

Bottom line - I think non-GUE divers think GUE divers are super rigid in terms of what they'll do, use or dive (or not). I'm sure there's some divers that are that rigid but I think being on the same page, agreeing on a dive plan and, most importantly, knowing how to help each other out in case things go sideways are what really matter, regardless of which flavor of KoolAid you drink.

 

[Lorenzoid]

My read is that you could get it back within the 5 years, but you still have to have done 25 in the preceding 3 years.

My read, too.

You're missing a choice that is made to only dive the way GUE teaches - which may be the only way a given diver knows.

So, they miss dives because he/they don't know how to plan a dive using gases that are not on the Standard Gas list. Unless he/they learned somewhere outside of GUE. Ditto for doing an ascent that is faster than the GUE prescribed way of doing it (which I believe would be the case if you were diving GF 40/80, for example).

How hard is it to learn to use non-standard gases? Again, I don't have that kind of training, so I speak not from personal knowledge, but I cannot imagine a GUE diver who wants to learn to dive with non-standard gases would not be readily capable of learning that "outside of GUE."

From a previous post, I got the impression you were only saying that the GUE divers YOU are familiar with rigidly adhere to the GUE system and choose not to deviate in any way, such as using non-standard gases. I replied to that by saying I suspect there are more flexible divers out there with GUE training who are willing to adjust how they dive in ways that don't always fit the GUE regime. I don't have a guess as to what percentage of GUE divers will only do dives that conform to everything GUE teaches, but from casual conversation I get the impression that few divers with GUE training adhere to every last bit of GUE dogma on every dive. I have used that EAN30 they offer in NC, and dived to in excess of 100 feet, because it made sense to me in that situation. Standard gases are a great idea, and another great idea is to understand the reasons for standards and make decisions for oneself whether to deviate in a particular situation.

 

[Marie13]

I suppose one's budget for diving, especially advanced tech diving, needs to include not just the training but also travel.

Guess it depends on where you live and what your diving goals are.

There are some Great Lakes wrecks from 100-145ft (or so) that I can hit within a 2 hour drive. Travel costs also don’t have to be high - I have a LOT of wrecks to dive within 8 hours driving time.

 

[stuartv]

My read, too.



How hard is it to learn to use non-standard gases? Again, I don't have that kind of training, so I speak not from personal knowledge, but I cannot imagine a GUE diver who wants to learn to dive with non-standard gases would not be readily capable of learning that "outside of GUE."

From a previous post, I got the impression you were only saying that the GUE divers YOU are familiar with rigidly adhere to the GUE system and choose not to deviate in any way, such as using non-standard gases. I replied to that by saying I suspect there are more flexible divers out there with GUE training who are willing to adjust how they dive in ways that don't always fit the GUE regime. I don't have a guess as to what percentage of GUE divers will only do dives that conform to everything GUE teaches, but from casual conversation I get the impression that few divers with GUE training adhere to every last bit of GUE dogma on every dive. I have used that EAN30 they offer in NC, and dived to in excess of 100 feet, because it made sense to me in that situation. Standard gases are a great idea, and another great idea is to understand the reasons for standards and make decisions for oneself whether to deviate in a particular situation.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking hypotheticals. I know a GUE diver here locally. The issue I've seen (with him) is that he calculates his ascent in his head. So, Multi-Deco or whatever doesn't help. His Shearwater is there just to tell him depth and time and to serve as a backup. I.e. he does the ascent he calculates (per his GUE training), but also makes sure that his ascent does not break any ceiling shown by the Shearwater. I.e. if he calculates that he can go up, but the Shearwater says stay, then he would stay.

Anyway, in order to calculate his ascent, he can only do it following the GUE protocol, which (to my understanding) only works when you are using Standard Gases. Thus, he will only dive Standard Gases.

It has caused a rift with local non-GUE divers for those two reasons: He insists on using Standard Gases when everyone else wants to use something that you'd probably call Best Mix. And, the dive plan (for everyone else) is calculated using M-D and GFs that yield a much shallower first stop. He'll splash with others and then refuse to ascend at the necessary rate for everyone else to follow their plan. They are trained that the team stays together, but staying that much deeper for that extra time throws off their planning.

Sure, it would be easy enough for him to figure out how to plan a dive using M-D and other than Standard Gases - and "more modern" GFs. But, that is all well outside his training. Not hard, but not how he was trained. And the Kool-Aid is strong with that one...

 

[elgoog]

It has caused a rift with local non-GUE divers for those two reasons: He insists on using Standard Gases when everyone else wants to use something that you'd probably call Best Mix. And, the dive plan (for everyone else) is calculated using M-D and GFs that yield a much shallower first stop. He'll splash with others and then refuse to ascend at the necessary rate for everyone else to follow their plan. They are trained that the team stays together, but staying that much deeper for that extra time throws off their planning.

This sounds pretty dangerous. You've basically got a situation where you didn't agree on a dive plan and decided to do the dive anyway (?) In addition, this put some of the team at risk since they did a dive/ascent which was different from their plan.
Not blaming any particular diver here, seems more a team failure. If anything, the GUE diver was the one who threw the whole dive plan off. Do you still dive with this person?

Sure, it would be easy enough for him to figure out how to plan a dive using M-D and other than Standard Gases - and "more modern" GFs. But, that is all well outside his training. Not hard, but not how he was trained.

Can't comment on how he was trained but the bolded part was not my experience (I did Rec 3, not Tech 1 but dive planning is very similar as you have 1 gas switch onto a deco bottle). We did a bunch of profiles with different gases, exposures, etc and combined that with a discussion on the other benefits of standard gases. The entire exercise was basically to figure out the dive plan ourselves using DecoPlanner (I had MultiDeco) and then discuss how it fits into the GUE protocols of standard gases that let you do this in your head and make adjustments without having to cut tables for most dives. This was accompanied by a slide that basically went "Aha, look how easy this all is if you use standard gases!! You just need to remember one rule/formula. Isn't that awesome?"

The point I'm trying to make here is that we did learn how to use dive planning software to plan staged deco dives. In fact, my personal conclusion was that it's actually better to use one of the UTD standard gases, 25/25, for dives in the 100-130' range that Rec3 covers and I could still stick to the exact same schedule as someone using the GUE standard 21/35.

And the Kool-Aid is strong with that one...

Yeah, seems like a case of losing sight of the forest among the trees.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

@salmon_ella

Do not be alarmed to the discussion going a bit off OT. This is normal for SB just like FB. Hopefully you find it interesting!