Frequency of advanced divers practicing CESAs ? [Poll]

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I find the risk of a shallow water blackout with a prolonged exhale while breath holding in the pools depths during a moderate workload drill will introduce risks I do not want to deal with.

Bringing up the resulting unconscious diver and resussitating them during an OW class has risks that the traditional CESA drill doesn't.

(Regarding the tethered instructor idea: I'm fairly horrified in the resulting lesson learned by a drill method where the student must struggle unsuccessfully to ascend and PREVENTS them from being able to surface while feeling air starved and trapped underwater unable to breath. That's the two last things I want to enforce in a new diver.)

Discussion welcome.

Has that ever actually happened?

 

[northernone]

Has that ever actually happened?

Yes. "Shallow water blackout with a prolonged exhale while breath holding in the pools depths during a moderate workload drill" is real risk.

A neutral article as talking point for further research:

Why holding your breath underwater can be so dangerous | CBC News

The principle is the same with unused scuba gear on our backs. I haven't witnessed it happen during an OW class to a student myself. (I also won't have students perform it that way.)

Here's a little more on this common safety risk:

Aquatic Safety

More Information

Many pools have prohibited underwater breath hold games for this reason and some freediving agencies are limiting breath holding to 60 seconds for basic training (not exhaling while shallow. The risk is considered unexceptable.)

We're not screening for blackout susceptibility in our OW classes and I am concerned it's a matter of time before we have some unconscious students if we make them all horizontal 'CESA' in shallow water.

The recipe is a known one and that is the occasional result.

(I've both witnessed and experienced shallow water blackouts.)

 

[Stoo]

I certainly don't and I advise divers to avoid doing so.

^^^This. A CESA is like a Hail Mary. Practicing them, to me, would be like intentionally tossing your car into a spin on a highway on order to practice what to do if your car is in a spin on a highway! If you live, it's great knowledge to have. If you live.

I too was trained, and also taught others how to do a "free ascent". I also used to dive using tables, no BC and had a J-valve. I like to think we've progressed since then.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Yes. "Shallow water blackout with a prolonged exhale while breath holding in the pools depths during a moderate workload drill" is real risk.

A neutral article as talking point for further research:

Why holding your breath underwater can be so dangerous | CBC News

The principle is the same with unused scuba gear on our backs. I haven't witnessed it happen during an OW class to a student myself. (I also won't have students perform it that way.)

Here's a little more on this common safety risk:

Aquatic Safety

More Information

Many pools have prohibited underwater breath hold games for this reason and some freediving agencies are limiting breath holding to 60 seconds for basic training (not exhaling while shallow. The risk is considered unexceptable.)

We're not screening for blackout susceptibility in our OW classes and I am concerned it's a matter of time before we have some unconscious students if we make them all horizontal 'CESA' in shallow water.

The recipe is a known one and that is the occasional result.

(I've both witnessed and experienced shallow water blackouts.)

First let me be clear that I hated CESAs and view them as unhealthy for instructors. I’ll never teach a CESA in open water again fortunately.

That said, I’m interested in real data. I don’t mean if you have observed it, but rather are there any documented cases of such? If there are, I’m pretty sure PADI would pull it (they are the only agency of which I’m aware that requires that skill in open water).

 

[Bob DBF]

This debate is like whether to take out the baby in a pram or the three nuns at the bus stop when losing it doing 90 down the high street. The answers is do not do 90 down the high street.

Wrong answer. I was a passenger in the car, the driver was standing on the brake and the car was accelerating. In the early '70's a Chevy big block had a bad motor mount and when it broke the engine fell to the side and jammed the throttle full on. The driver was deciding on what was going to stop us, I eventually got the answer through to him, after running a couple of red lights and avoiding cars. Turn off the key.

The choice was not whether to drive down the road at 90 and what to hit, but how to stop.

Having as many answers to emergencies as possible gives choices, you don't have to use the most dangerous procedure first, just because you know how.


Bob

 

[MichaelMc]

are there any documented cases of such? If there are, I’m pretty sure PADI would pull it (they are the only agency of which I’m aware that requires that skill in open water).

NAUI has open water 15' CESA for leadership levels.

 

[Dark Blue]

Decades ago, before the advent of the SPG, the J-valve was popular, but it often did not work. I was not diving in that era, but ScubaBoard posts from those who did dive then said that he CESA was a very common means of ascent. It works--if it done properly. I have also talked with people who did CESA's in actual OOG situations, and they reported it was no problem for them. It apparently does not take a lot of practice.

Those it was a problem for were unavailable for comment.

 

[gcarter]

I have never practiced CESA outside OW.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

NAUI has open water 15' CESA for leadership levels.

That doesn't answer my question. I'm curious if there has ever been a case of shallow water blackout when performing the CESA.

 

[northernone]

That doesn't answer my question. I'm curious if there has ever been a case of shallow water blackout when performing the CESA.

I'm going to suggest it is nearly impossible when done vertically from depth as historically taught.

UNLESS it is done horizontal shallow while exhaling which is a classic recipe for a blackout.

(Single data point: I can black myself out in a pool swimming underwater fairly easily. Not breathless after even a 4 minute CESA.)